1 10 108 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/25d3dd9328625f9c3898496f36920ac2.jpg bec48ceaae19ccd943b27f48615ebfe1 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/ced00b80ad088706dd5c11d604f1e09a.mp3 5d7e67b0a432be7a2ef71e0a424a152e https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/afadc5d2afd676cbac4a4512dbe5b25d.pdf 5d153251234da657aab6ccc8c8e60db3 PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH SISTER ROSA DALY CONCERNING THE VISIT OF DAUGHTERS OF CHARITY HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATORS TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND CAPITAL ON MARCH 26, 1974 Interviewed by Sister Eleanor Casey July 7, 2005 Proofed by Scott Keefer, May 18, 2020 Sr. Eleanor: Today is Thursday, July 7, 2005. This is Sister Eleanor Casey with Sister Rosa Daly who is recounting her experiences on Capitol Hill in 1974, when she visited Senator [J. Glenn] Beall and Vice President [Gerald] Ford and also went to the White House. Sr. Rosa: Okay. As far as I can remember. Yeah, okay. We assembled in the White House to talk to—and the gentlemen's name is in your folder there [Dr. James H. Cavanaugh, Deputy Director for Operations of the Domestic Council for President Richard M. Nixon.], someone in charge of economy, and we were all assembled in a conference room in the White House. And then we went to Vice President’s, Ford's office and had our picture taken and met Vice President Ford, and then we went to Senator Beall's office and had a picture taken. Then he took us by the little car that goes from his office to the Capitol, and we had our lunch at the lunchroom for congressmen. The most thrilling experience was, he reserved a table right inside the door so that he would sit and watch the people coming in the door. As they came in, he'd say, "Oh, here comes [Senator John] Tower from Texas. Anybody here from Texas? What's your name?" And he would say, "Senator," he said, "got one of your constituents here, "he said. "We've just been meeting for so-and-so and so-and so, and she wants to tell you about that bill that we're contemplating." So sister would talk to him. Then he'd go, "Anybody here from Louisiana? Here comes so-and-so from Louisiana. Senator, one of your constituents here." It was really interesting to see the way he behaved to get his point across, you know. We read about these congressmen, and you say, "Oh, yes, they're, you know, big power". But really, he was so interested because he appreciated the number of hospitals we had in that time, and what this Taft-Hartley exemption was gonna' mean to our hospitals and to tell you the truth I don't remember what the outcome was, that’s the worst part.1 1 Research by Mr. Michael Riley, provincial CFO, shows that the meeting probably concerned whether hospitals sponsored by the Daughters of Charity might find it advantageous to administer their individual pension plans as a group. On September 9, 1974 congress enacted the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) which codified federal law pertaining to employee pension and welfare benefit plans. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Casey, Sister Eleanor, D.C. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daly, Sister Rosa, D.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:03:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daly, Sister Rosa Interview Subject The topic of the resource "Daly, Sister Rosa, D.C.; Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul; Daughters of Charity National Health System; Ford, Gerald R., 1913-2006; Beall, J. Glenn (John Glenn), Jr., 1927-2006 Description An account of the resource Sister Rosa Daly, D.C. describes meeting with Senator John Glenn Beall and Vice President Gerald Ford in 1974, along with other Senators, regarding hospitals operated by the Daughters of Charity. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource "Daly, Sr. Rosa, D.C. Casey, Sr. Eleanor, D.C." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity Archives, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005/07/07 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Scott (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication.ÿ Contact archvies staff for appropriate forms and contact information Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3; Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Daly, Sister Rosa Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1974/26/03 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Healthcare https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a8452564525adc7b0d408a6941837e4f.jpg bcb5735a4f5d4c1baddb3097a20a26b3 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6d485eb5496cea21148ff12b5ff59431.mp3 aa3a10940e2393e5acde070a73b2cc68 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/2fd27753a250b23dcc24309a4db24244.pdf 06293fd201cf51d0aa60af1fd90296c9 PDF Text Text 1 Sister Maryland Anderson – Oral History It is April 24, 2014, and I [S. Andrea Koverman] am here talking with Sister Maryland Anderson [in Mother Margaret Hall where Maryland is recuperating]. Maryland: Maryland T. It is listed in the book. Andrea: What is the T. for? Maryland: Theresa Andrea: Is that your given name or your religious name? Maryland: Theresa is my confirmation name, after Theresa of the Little Flower. Andrea: So it that Tere… Maryland: Theresa Andrea: You mentioned Dayton before. I grew up in Dayton. Maryland: I lived there. Andrea: What part? Maryland: On Sherwood Drive, right behind Good Samaritan Hospital. In the Trotwood area sort of. Andrea: I was on the Bellbrook, Centerville line. I went to Incarnation in Centerville and then Alter High School. Maryland: Oh yeah, Alter. Centerville is a good shopping area. Andrea: It has grown into a big shopping area. Maryland: Yes, it has. I use the Greene (Town Center) now. It is very nice. Andrea: I like to be outside. Maryland: That is all I need. I don’t do a lot of shopping. Andrea: Okay. To start with you can tell me anything you want to, whether I have a question, if it doesn’t address it, whatever you feel like you want to include. We could start with maybe you telling me what your life was like before you entered. What is your family background and where are you from. Maryland: I am from Florida, born close to Jacksonville. I grew up in St. Augustine. I went to a girls’ academy there because it was during the war, and my parents traveled. My dad was an engineer and they travelled, so they put us in that school. My parents were not Catholic. In fact, my daddy did not like Catholics. He was Swedish, born in Stockholm, and he was a Swedish engineer-trained. He thought that the Sisters were the only people in the United States that could really educate people. So he overcame his prejudice because he wanted me to have a good education. And I think he was very right on that. So then I went to college. I got my bachelor’s degree at Florida State, my master’s degree at Louisiana State, and my Ph.D. from Notre Dame. The Notre Dame. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �2 Andrea: The Notre Dame. And what are your degrees in? Maryland: My bachelor’s degree is Fine Arts I think... No, actually Science. And let’s see, my master’s degree is master of Science, and my Ph.D. is in anthropology and that kind of stuff which I enjoy very much. I taught at Notre Dame, and I also taught at the Mount. I came to the Community a little late in life because I had lived and worked a lot before I came in. And then I met the Sisters of Charity at Notre Dame and became very intrigued by what they had to…, what their dedication to the Lord and the work of the Community was. And it spoke to me because they were not cloistered and shut away. They worked in the real world, and that appealed to me a great deal. And so I became very interested in them, and I had Sisters that added to that influence. And then I went out West to work with the Sisters again, and I was at El Pomar which was a retreat place we had there. It was lovely. And I worked there at a hospital, one we owned. At that time we ran our hospitals. We had not divested. And so that sort of did it. Along the way I decided, "Maybe I will do this." So I prayed a lot about it, thought about it, and finally made up my mind. Well, I think they don’t accept people… I was near 50 when I did it, and I don’t think they take people of that age any more. Andrea: Well, actually, that is about how old I am. Well, I just turned 50 on March 28th. So I started pre-entrance when I was 44. Maryland: Did you? Are you planning on entering? Andrea: Yes, I am a Novice. Maryland: Oh, I don’t think that registered with me. Andrea: Oh I am sorry. Yes, I am a Novice. Maryland: Well, congratulations. Andrea: Thank you. Maryland: Who is your Novice Director? Andrea: Donna Steffen. Maryland: I don’t know her very well, but I know who she is. Andrea: We live in the back of St. Joseph Home. And there is another Novice, Tracy Kemme. Maryland: I have heard her name from someone. We lived in Bayley Place when I was there. Betty Finn was our Novice Director, and we lived in the back of Bayley. Andrea: That is where we live. Which bedroom was yours? Maryland: I think I was on the second floor. I don’t remember, but it was close to the end. And we got into a lot of mischief. We gave Betty a little fit. Betty was… There was an older Sister who is still with us, Sister…I know her name as well as I know my own. I ©Sisters of Charity Archives �3 just haven’t called it in a long time. She was the older Sister in the house, and she and Betty were good friends. Andrea: Annina Morgan? Maryland: Yes, Annina. Betty used to tell Annina, "You keep out of the business of the Novices. That is my job." So that was rather… I had a very short… I did my novitiate very quickly. Well, I did almost a year. And then did one year… the next step, and then I took my first vows. And I did my final vows very quickly too. Because by this time in life, I knew what was going on. I wasn’t just a young person trying to decide about various things. I have been very happy as a Sister of Charity. I found it very supportive and I tried to be very true to our mission in what we do. And I do still, although I am retired now. I still do help people with grants, but they have to be 501C3 which means they are tax exempt. And I am working primarily with women and children who are poor and dependent. Andrea: That is great. Maryland: And that is very challenging to me because writing grants is sort of like hunting for Easter eggs. You kind of dig around and see what you can come up with. It is getting harder as finances have tightened. Philanthropic money is not as available as it used to be. But you can still get some. You really have to work at it. I am lucky in that I have been doing it so long that my name is known to some of them that I go to. So they know that if I am bringing them a request that it fits their guidelines and that I have come to the right group of people. That is where a lot of people make their mistake. They go to Foundations that don’t support what they are asking for. And there is nothing wrong with their mission and what they want to do; they just go to the wrong source. So you know that is just a learning process. I have taught some courses on grant writing. Andrea: Oh, that is good. I did some of that as a teacher. Maryland: Oh, did you? Andrea: It was called 21st Century Grants, and we wrote that and got it. Maryland: I have got copies of ones that I have written at home. I have books of them. Andrea: That is great because then you can use them. So when you went to…,you said you went to El Pomar to work. Were you a nurse or what were you doing? Maryland: I really went there to work in a medical program. I worked with the National Cancer Institute out of Washington, you know, the big National Cancer Institute of the Institutes, and I set up a cancer program there…cancer information, and it is big now. It has taken over the whole…that area of Colorado, and we did it with, as I say, with federal money. We trained people to be knowledgeable in cancer, so that callers who had been recently diagnosed or people who were just worried about it or wanted knowledge about prevention.… These people were trained to answer questions. But we had two oncologists that worked with us who were really the head of the program medically, and when we had questions that required a doctor’s answer which we avoided, when we did we would go to our cancer doctors, our oncologists. And one of them that was my boss his name was Anderson too. And they thought we were ©Sisters of Charity Archives �4 married. Oh no. Paul Anderson was his name. So we built that program up and it became very big and very important. So that is what kind of took me out West and tied me there. Andrea: Does it have a name…the Cancer Institute you started? Maryland: It was Cancer Information Services of Colorado at that time. Now it is Cancer Information Services of the Western Front, I think they call it. It covers all of that area. So it just broadened and grew and grew. It was very challenging. We had Elisabeth Kubler-Ross come and speak. And then I wanted to do some ads, and I knew a woman who knew Ann B. Davis real well. Do you know who Ann B. Davis is? Andrea: No. Maryland: She played on that program the Brady Bunch. She was the maid. Andrea: Flo…not Flo. Maryland: Ann B. Davis was her name. But what was she on the program? Andrea: I am trying to remember. I can’t think of it. Maryland: She had been on two different TV programs. The earlier one she was a little…kind of funny. Well, anyway, through this friend that got us together, I ended up… At the time I had a little red pickup truck because I had a camper…I wasn’t in the Community then, and I liked to camp a lot. So I went to pick her up in my truck, and we just had the best ole time. And she came.We had her set up in a nice place to stay, and we had a big luncheon and had her there. And people came to meet he,r and we did a PSA, Public Service Ad, and she did… We set up a kitchen and got the cauliflower and all of these nice beautiful vegetables, and when people realized we were going to do an ad people give them to you. So we had a beautiful set up for her to work with when they did the filming of the ad. And then the Cancer Information Service at the federal level wanted to use it, but they had a control over it, so it could only be used in our particular area of the country. Those Hollywood people hang on to things. So that was a good experience. I enjoyed that very much. People were very dedicated to that service. You know, cancer is something that concerns us all. No doubt that we encouraged a lot of people to have checkups. And you know I never realized the number of men…You don’t realize they need to do breast exams until we had that program years ago, and I thought, you know guys are supposed to do this too, and they don’t know it. Well, it is smaller in percentage certainly than women, but it is just as bad. Andrea: Yeah, they do have it. Maryland: So that was a big part of my coming into…when I first came in…I taught at Notre Dame, and I taught at the Mount as I said. I have been in academic missions most of my life. I did do some time in the Navy and the Medical Service Corp. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �5 Andrea: Oh, you did? Well, can you start from when you grew up in Florida, and you told me where you went to school, but when did you get out? Was the first place you went El Pomar after? Maryland: For the Community? Andrea: No, like before you entered the Community what was your. . . ? Maryland: El Pomar was not in my life at the time. Andrea: I know you have already covered this quickly, but from high school you went to… Maryland: From high school I went to college. Andrea: Yeah, but… Maryland: I worked at different kinds of jobs that young people do. I got jobs to help support me through my education. I was a soda jerk for a while. I think I was a sophomore or freshman in high school, and we were right down the street from a hospital. We had student nurses in there, and they are always broke, and I got fired for giving away ice cream. Andrea: Oh, no. Maryland: I would give them two or three scoops of ice cream and only charge them for one of two. That was the only time in my life that I ever got fired from my job. But I did that kind of stuff out of high school, worked at different kinds of jobs and worked toward going to school. My parents were not poor, but I was one of these people who wanted to do it myself. My daddy said, "If you get through the first four years I will help you with the rest of it." And I did the first four years in three years, and when he wanted to help me I said, "I am going to do it myself." So I did. He was, as I said, a Swede. He was an engineer at that time, and a lot of Swedes migrated to America to become engineers, and we were working on things like Boulder Dam and stuff like that. So it was a good haven for well-trained engineers, and he came. And part of his time here was when the Depression was just starting out. I was born in ’30 which was the beginning of the Depression, and he became a chef at a New York restaurant, Luchalls [?], it was a famous restaurant, for a while because there was no work for engineers. But he met my mom in Chicago, and they married, and then I came along… Andrea: And they ended up in Florida somehow. Maryland. Yes. Well, my mother was from Terre Haute, Indiana, and they liked Florida. They moved there, and then he had a big business after that. Andrea: Do you have siblings? Maryland: I have half brothers and a half sister. My mother was married to their father, and he was a lawyer, and he was killed by a man that he sent to prison. He had him sent to prison, and when he got out he shot him. So that was the end of that first marriage, and then she met my father, and they married. So I had two half brothers and ©Sisters of Charity Archives �6 a half sister. The oldest half brother died in the war, and my other brother died some years later of a heart attack. And my sister and I were very close, but she died about five years ago. So that was the last of my… Now I have nieces and nephews and grandnieces and grandnephews, and they are all in Florida, and we stay very much in touch. They tell me I am insane to live in Ohio. Andrea: I am sure because they are in Florida. Maryland: They are right. Andrea: Did you say you grew up in Fort Lauderdale? Maryland: No. I grew up pretty much around Jacksonville. Andrea: So are you a surfer girl…a beach girl? Maryland: Oh yeah. But I am so light skinned, I had to really limit my exposure to the sun. Thank God I did because in those days we didn’t realize how much melanoma damage to the skin was permanent. But it hurt me too bad. I turned red and blistered. I never tanned. I bet you tanned. You have got good color for it. Andrea: Yeah. I lived in South Carolina for 22 years though. Maryland: What part? Andrea: Beaufort. It is the same county as Hilton Head. Maryland: Oh yeah. I know where Hilton Head is. Andrea: Everyone knows that. So it is the southern tip. About 40 minutes from the Georgia border. Yes. I stay a little bit yellow now. I don’t get tan. Maryland: You know, I like to go down to that part of the country during peach season. People up here don’t know what a good peach is…or what good seafood is. Andrea: Oh I know. I was going to say the shrimp. I miss the shrimp so bad, and the crab. Maryland: This friend of mine…we grew up together, we were sort of like sisters. We are a select family rather than a born family. And every time she comes up to visit me, she brings me a big mess of shrimp. You know, ninety-five cents, a dollar, a dollar-anda-half pound of jumbos. And I figure, I told her you pay $15 a pound for these little doodads. Andrea: So from college did you enter the Navy? Maryland: Yeah, I went in the Navy when I got out of College, and I enjoyed that very much. It was a good experience. There were some things about it that were bad because I saw little kids that got shot and hurt. In the hospital ship you take in a lot of people. Even though we were a big white hospital ship with a big red cross on it they would still drop bombs at the end of the ship. And it was clearly marked a hospital. You know a big white ship with a red cross on it is not hard to miss. So we had some of that. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �7 We had a crew of about 840, and we had major operating rooms and all of that. It was just a hospital floating, treating people that needed it. Andrea: What did you do on the hospital ship? Maryland: Really for that particular business, I was trained by the Navy for it, I was a med tech. A medical technologist. I would cross type and cross match blood and do blood counts and stuff like that. But I went through what they call a hospital core school in the Navy. And if we were in Dayton I could show you… Oh, you don’t need to see all of that … It shows you how you graduated from this to this to this, and I worked my way up till I got to go to Washington and do…which at that time was very high on guard…a training in a bone and eye bank because at that time was really just getting started. So that was interesting to me. Just to collapse all of that that was a part of my experience as I went through. Andrea: What made you join the Navy? The war? Maryland: Well, my family. My brothers and everybody were in the service, and I just felt like I owed my country a debt. Andrea: That is unusual for a woman to feel that way at that time. Maryland: I knew some women that felt that same way. And then I got a commission which made my life very pleasant. I became a lieutenant commander. But it was…I met nice people. There was none of this harassment that people talk about. That must be the later military for women because in those days if you got a little scrambled egg on your pot, and anybody messes with you, they are dead meat. But I never met any men that were disrespectful. I did date a guy when I was in the Navy that I liked a lot. Bill Einsford was his name. You know it was just a good part of my life. I enjoyed it. Andrea: That was a different time. People treated people differently. Maryland: I think women at that time perhaps went in it for a different set of motives. I don’t know that that is true. I never researched it in theory code. I think some of the younger people now maybe they are husband hunting, or career hunting. Or just looking for a place to anchor. Andrea: That might be their only opportunity. A lot of them. Maryland: And maybe it is their path to more education. I don’t think nowadays they have the GI Bill. I did. I had some GI Bill benefits. That is what I used at Notre Dame. For every month you are in, you got so much money when you went to college. Andrea: I think they still do that. Because I know that is the reason a lot of people enter. Maryland: Good because young people deserve it. This business now is a whole lot different now. I hate to see our young people going to Afghanistan. I want to get them out of there. Andrea: So how long were you in the Navy? Maryland: About five years, and I stayed in the reserves. And I was finishing my master's degree, and one of the scrimmages came along, and I forget now what it even was, but I got this notice that they were going to put me back on active duty. ”Dear God, ©Sisters of Charity Archives �8 if you just let me get out of this, I will get out of the Navy altogether." And I did. I got out. I didn’t want to interrupt my education at that point. So I made it through and got out. Andrea: Do you remember what year that was? Maryland: Was that Korea? It could have been because I was in part of Korea. What scrimmage came before Korea? There was so many of those little ones. I don’t remember. Andrea: Well, that is okay. So you got out of the Navy and finished up your master's degree? Maryland: Yes I finished my master's and my Ph.D. Andrea: Oh, you went right through? Maryland: No. I took time off in between each degree to make money. I got a scholarship for most all of my colleges, so I was not building up a lot of debt which helped. And then when I got my Ph.D. I had three very good offers for total scholarships. And although I am a Catholic at that time, I had never attended a Catholic college. So when Notre Dame offered me a good deal, and they did, I went to Notre Dame because I loved Notre Dame, Number One. Andrea: That would be hard to turn down, a scholarship to Notre Dame. Maryland: It sure turned me on to football. In football season people know not to call me when Notre Dame is playing. Andrea: That is fun, a fun school to cheer for. It has lots of fans outside of its own alumni even. Maryland: Yeah, the underground alumni of Notre Dame which are people who have never gone to Notre Dame, but they are dedicated fans. And what’s his name was there the year I was…while I was there. Rudy. I did not know him, but he was there when I was there because I was there…I think I was teaching in 1975. But then he went, and five of his brothers followed pursuit. And he worked very hard to survive at Notre Dame. They started him off in a little community college across the road to see if he could build up his grades. That was an interesting story. I knew Father Hesburgh which was a big honor. He is quite a man. Very charismatic. Andrea: I don’t know who that is. Maryland: Hesburgh. He is the most famous president of Notre Dame that ever existed. And he became very important in world peace and in big committees that controlled the city that was about important political issues. Hesburgh was one of our big, big leaders…religious leaders. But he was respected as a politician and a leader, not just as a Catholic priest or a priest of any kind. So my degree has his name on it which I am honored to have. Andrea: So after you got your Master’s or your Ph.D. where did you head? Maryland: I did mostly teaching after that. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �9 Andrea: At Notre Dame? Maryland: Yeah, I taught at…Well, I left Notre Dame for a while because they are not inclined to inbreed. If you graduated from there, they want you to go away for a while and get seasoned. Well I did. I went to… Well, let’s see, where did I go? I can’t remember now. But wherever I was, a friend of mine committed suicide. And the guy that was the head of the department, Andy Wreikiert, who was a friend of mine, called me and asked me if it would be possible for me to come and pick up where he left off. They wanted somebody who could work with the students who could face it. His suicide blew my mind. Well anyway, I did go back, and I taught, and I ended up that time staying there for quite a while. In the meantime I am getting involved with the Sisters of Charity at Notre Dame, and so I kept getting deeper into that. And there was a Sister, I doubt that you know her, that I ended up working with. We were actually a team, employed at Notre Dame…Sister Maria Garlock. And she was the head of the graduate women’s living quarters…rooms and so on. It was a little place that had little apartments and little houses. And so she hired me to be her assistant which helped me because I was going through getting my degree. So that helped me, and that is how I began to get involved with the Charities. Andrea: So she was the one that kind of brought you… Maryland: She was a walking saint if there ever was one. I never in my life heard one word against her. And that is unusual, especially with catty women religious groups. But Maria was just a fabulous human being. Unfortunately, she died of Alzheimer’s. And it runs in her family. She had another sister who had it, two brothers. Andrea: Wow. That is too bad. So were you about the same age? Maryland: Yeah, I think Maria was about four or five years older than me…three or four or something like that, but I became very close with her family, and her nephew and I are still good friends. He comes to my house. He works for Channel 9 in Dayton. He will come sometimes when he is on that side of town doing a story and park that big van out there, and my neighbors would call and say what is going on with Channel 9? I have nice neighbors in Dayton. We have a sort of a little community there. There are Sisters in the houses all along—[Sherwood Drive],…and they are little houses. You would be hard pressed to live with-- You might get by with two if you are good friends. But you couldn’t get beyond that because they are just little houses. And they like to rent to the Sisters because we pay our rent, and we take care of the property. So we have what we call the Sherwood Community, Sherwood Drive Community. And it is just about… Let’s see…Donna [Collins] is a Sister of Charity, then my real close friends, Sister Dee, Fritz and Phyllis. They are a different community, but they are very special people to us. And then there is me, and there is a nifty house that the squirrels live in. This doctor, well, he owns, and he won’t rent it, but the squirrels live in it. They don’t bother me. And then there is another Sister. I doubt that you would know her name or I would call it…Corrine Schmidt, you don’t know her do you? Terry Dery… Andrea: I do know that name. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �10 Maryland: Terry is a [Dayton] councilor, so you might know her. Terry Dery and. . . Andrea: Is that where Katie Hoelscher and Fran [Flynn]. . . ? Maryland: Yes. Katie. Isn’t she here right now getting therapy? Andrea: Yes, she has moved here. She is on the Third Floor Respite. Maryland: I see her every now and then when I come for physical therapy. Katie is an absolutely wonderful lady. Andrea: Yeah, I love Katie: Maryland: It grieves me that… You know she broke those legs a long time ago. Andrea: I didn’t realize that she had done that. She just had a back surgery procedure, and she is doing something else. Maryland: She fell and broke both of those legs years ago, and that was the beginning of problems for her. But she is… I just have the deepest respect and liking for her. Andrea: She was the principal at Alter. Maryland: Oh yeah, she was, wasn’t she? Let’s see…you knew Fran Flynn then. I was grieved at her death. She suffered some though before. Andrea: Yeah, a long time. That was so sad. Maryland: She was a gift to the Community. All and all, I think we have a pretty marvelous group of women. Andrea: I am certainly impressed with the more I learn and the more Sisters I get to know. It is amazing. Maryland: Yes, the kindness and the caring. They are genuinely women of God. Andrea: They really are. The service that this group of women has done from the beginning is just amazing. Maryland: I am glad your experience with the Charities has been so good too. Andrea: Well I have relatives that I... Maryland: …that are in the Community? Andrea: Kateri Koverman is my second cousin. Maryland: Kateri is a buddy of mine. Andrea: Is she? Maryland: Yeah. Andrea: She is my second cousin. And Sister Mary Joseph…she died in 2010…Koverman…she was a teacher. Maryland: I might need to see her face to remember her. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �11 Andrea: Then I had two great aunts…when I was a little girl...Mary Walburga and Mary Naomi. Maryland: No, I knew Mary Naomi’s name. Well, how did we miss you? Andrea: Well, here I am now. Better late than never. Maryland: Well, you are not late. Andrea: No, I don’t think so comparatively speaking. Maryland: In the old days they used to call it a delayed vocation. I called it a little later call from the Lord. Andrea: That is a good way to say it. I would say I am a late bloomer. I took the long way home. Maryland: The Lord just waited a while to give me a full call, but he has been telling me all along, "Come on, come on." Andrea: I had some other things to do first I guess. Maryland: You know. I really kind of felt that way. I didn’t want to do it. I said, "Not me, Lord. I am not for that kind of life," you know, and I just went on for a few years and was pulled back and forth, and finally, whatever you want to call it, an opening or something, I just thought I have to do this. I can’t fight it any longer. Andrea: Yeah, that is kind of how I felt. And, you know, you try to figure it out, but you are not going to know until you try. And I finally said, "I will go try," and you just keep moving along. Maryland: And if you start sounding like "Oh, I have been called," people think you are a nut of some sort. But the call is in the heart, in here. Andrea: Yeah, and it is not a voice. Maryland: No. It is just, like what you said. This is what you do. And it is not a big awakening or trumpets don’t play. Andrea: Right. I noticed, and I can’t remember who I was talking to, but I said something about when I enter instead of if I enter. And someone said, "Did you hear what you just said?" Like part of me had already decided. Maryland: The decision was there. The Lord has an interesting way of giving us his messages. I found out it is all right to be mad at God. He can handle it. And I say when you get really mad you want to tell the Lord. Tell him you are fed up with this. Andrea: Yeah. There is plenty of reason to get angry in this world. Maryland: And the Lord can handle , so take it to him. Andrea: Right. Okay. So your friend Sister Maria Garlock introduced you to the Community. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �12 Maryland: Well, when I ended up being her assistant director of the women’s housing, then that is when I met… Maria introduced me to people I doubt you know, John Miriam Jones. You know her? Andrea: Oh yeah. Maryland: Then the one out West. The other Sister. Andrea: Is she still out there? Maryland: Yes. She lives with Gasdorf. I need my directory. That’s what I need to keep my mind… Andrea: The little blue one? Maryland: Yeah, that one. I have been out of touch with these people so long I don’t recall their name. Now Annina you know. Annina is a good friend of mine. Andrea: Annina is a wonderful person. Maryland: Annina is going to outlive God. Andrea: Isn’t she amazing? Maryland: She is amazing. And she is no dull gal either. Andrea: Oh my gosh, she doesn’t forget anything. She is amazing. Maryland: Here is Kateri. Kateri Maureen Koverman. She is in 319 here. Did you know that? Andrea: Yeah. I am on the page in front. I was looking to see if my name was on there, and I am right there. Maryland: Oh, okay. Let me see your pen. So you actually have the Koverman name. Andrea: Yes. Maryland: You know Kateri did some wonderful things. Andrea: Yes, she is inspirational. Maryland: Isn’t she the one that did the [Vietnam baby] airlift? I mean, that is historical. You know the last time I saw her though, which has been maybe three years, I was a little worried about her. She didn’t look so good. Andrea: She had just had a stroke. Maryland: Yes, she did. She had that stroke. Is she holding her own? Andrea: Well, she actually just had another one about four or five months ago. But she moved her Them Bones Veteran Community in the Motherhouse now, so she is starting to get back into it. So she is doing okay. Maryland: She has done such wonderful things you know. I hate to hear that she is having… Well, that is part of getting old you know, just keep crashing and crashing. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �13 Andrea: I am trying to think of the other Sisters I know from the West. Linda Chavez is one. Maryland: Yeah. I know Linda very well. This Sister's name…she was regional for…she was head of the Community when I was out West and decided to join the Sisters of Charity. She was the one I went to talk about it with. And I just love her dearly. She steps back from…she doesn’t want to be in the limelight… Jane Grosheider and this other friend of Grosheider’s. She is not a person I am terribly crazy about, the other one, so I don’t remember her name. Andrea: Okay. So you had to leave Notre Dame to become a Novice? Maryland: Yeah, that is when I got all turned on to it. Really, it just came like taking a breath. You know it was just that easy and natural to me. Andrea: That is really nice. Maryland: And it was you know…because when I came in I was pretty well off financially. And Betty Finn and Annina used to say to me, "Well, how is it going to feel not to have any money?" And I said, "Well, I think I will make it." So they made me the treasurer and shopper of Bayley, and I had to do…we all had a stint at it. But I did it, and they said, "Now you know you are used to having all the money you want to have and everything," but by the end of the month they were begging for treats. I said, "That doesn’t go in the budget," and Betty said, "You could be a little looser Andy." Then she said, "You know, when I was going in and I was used to having money and everything," and I said, "Betty, I had money because I kept a hand on it." Andrea: Yeah right. Not because you spent everything. Maryland: So that was kind of a funny story. But that is really the sum and substance of my story. Andrea: That sums up your story? Maryland: Yeah. I think that tells my story. What more is there to say? How much can you talk about yourself? Andrea: I know it is hard to talk about yourself. Well, if you can’t think of anything else you would like to add. . . Maryland: I am just an ordinary old Sister of Charity. I never wanted leadership in the Community. I never put myself in position to be running for it. If people asked me, I would say no because by that time I just didn’t want that. I just wanted to be me. I had enough leadership in my younger life that I didn’t have any ambitions to run the world. Andrea: Yeah, that is true. You did. Maryland: Although I admire the women who have been doing that for us. We have had some noble leaders, some great leaders. Andrea: Well, did you go back into teaching after you became a Sister of Charity? Maryland: Yeah. I did. I taught over at our College for several years, and then I got out of that teaching and opened up an office of grant resources for the Community to see if ©Sisters of Charity Archives �14 we could get some Sisters to go through it, and we could get them some grants, and it really didn’t work out very well. For one thing they kind of…they didn’t really know what to do with it. Andrea: I think they have probably gotten better at that now or some of them, some of the agencies. Maryland: I mean they didn’t know what to do with an offer for help. You know, they were just used to doing it on their own. And in those days they weren’t doing all that good, but they are now. I mean they are much better at it. They got more sophisticated with it. As your needs…like the Seton Family Center, I started out helping her, and she appreciated the help. But she built that thing on her own efforts. And we have a lot of Sisters that have done that, you know. They are gusty ladies, and they get out there, and they want to do something, and they do it. Andrea: Yeah, it is great. How did you end up in Dayton? Maryland: How did I end up in Dayton? Oh, I was teaching at the Mount, and Sister Maria and I shared one of the Community apartments on Rapid Run, and we were both at the College. When Sister Maria… Jean Patrice [Harrington] called Sister Maria and asked her to come from the West and work at the College, and Maria said okay she would. We talked about it, and I said, "Okay if that is what is going to be a good ministry for you, take it." And then about a week later after Maria said she would. Jean Patrice called me and asked me if I would teach at the Mount. So I went to the Mount when Maria did, and we lived in that… It was the first apartment building the Community ever bought. Maryanna Coyle and I went looking together. And we took one of those apartments in one of the buildings, and we lived there and taught at the College for a good while. And then Maria was asked to go to Dayton, and not long after that I was invited to Dayton, and so we got a house that the [Good Samaritan] Hospital owned and lived in it. Andrea: You got invited to Dayton to do what? Maryland: Just to…what did I do? I had another job. It wasn’t in the Community. God, I don’t remember. It was starting some program for something…the Hubert Foundation. I was doing some work with the Hubert Foundation. Joann, Hubert’s wife, is [not] a comember of our Community. Ed Hubert . . .; she is a very…she graduated from the Mount, and she was a student of mine and a lovely lady; he is very rich, so he can move in and out of circles. I have gotten money out of him for programs. Andrea: Well, that is good. Maryland: Yeah. Never look a gift horse in the mouth. Andrea: So you have been in Dayton ever since? Maryland: Pretty much so. I like Dayton very much. I don’t like Cincinnati. Andrea: Really? Why not? Maryland: I just never have liked Cincinnati. It is a big dirty city to me. East hates West, and they have got all of this politics going on. Get over it, honey. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �15 Andrea: Yeah. It took me a long time to figure out what people were even talking about the East and West. Maryland: Yeah, and you know Delhi kind of died. I taught at the College, and I lived right up the hill from the College at those apartments on…they kind of sit back…let me see who lives there. Andrea: Not the Rapid Run ones? Maryland: Yeah. Up off of Rapid Run [Anderson Ferry].Ruth and Victoria live there. Andrea: And I think Joyce Richter. Maryland: Does Joyce live there? She could. Andrea: The Rapid Run apartments? Maryland: I lived there a couple of times really as I came in and out, but Ruth and Victoria moved about a year-and-a-half ago to get a lower apartment. Ruth has a little problem with her legs as she is aging. Okay. They don’t name it here. It is on Anderson Ferry Road. Andrea: Oh, okay. I think I know what you are talking about. Maryland: That apartment. You hit like you are going to River Road, and it cuts off up in there. Yeah, I lived there for a while in one of those apartments on the backside. That is when I was at the College. Andrea: Well, thank you very much for sharing your story with me. Maryland: There is nothing exciting about my story. It is just an ordinary every day run of the mill kind. Andrea: An ordinary Sister of Charity is an extraordinary kind of a person most likely. That is generally what I am finding out. Maryland: Well, I am awfully glad. When are you going to…when is your next thing occurring? Andrea: My next step you mean? Maryland: Yes. Andrea: Well my………. (end of tape) [apostolic novitiate year is next. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �16 ©Sisters of Charity Archives � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anderson, Sister Maryland, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49 Minutes 44 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Dayton (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Maryland Anderson, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC April 14, 2014 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Maryland Anderson by Sister Andrea Koverman. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anderson, Sister Maryland, SC; Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/14/2014 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harvey, Jan (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Maryland Anderson, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC April 14, 2014 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1983-2014 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sister Veterans Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3b12f34b83dbe8741573ac651618bd3d.PNG bc2260fd0c0e1a1286c87a739b76d4df https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3cdbba061df7ff6b4ce2a29a095a2fdf.mp3 e2b7d7b01602f7ab1f9363fe38a84ee1 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/77b332166306d8883eec884b54765a22.pdf 6b11a63f0bc22894a6dace586442f6cb PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 1 of 24 JK: This interview is with Sister Therese Bangert. JK: The interviewer is Jane Kenamore, and we are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas. The date is June 29th, 2017. Sister Therese, can you tell us about your parents, growing up in Nebraska? And what were some of the values that your parents passed on to you? [00:00:38] TB: Before I say that if I can say that I feel grateful to have the opportunity for this interview and in reflecting and preparing for it to put 72 years of life into 20 questions is no small challenge. JK: (Laughs) TB: So, I'm going to trust that the Holy Spirit is going to guide this interview and share what's important for people to know. So, my parents, Gerald and Edna—amazing parents—a genius at not being punishing or rulesoriented but expectations that we be responsible and we were. Both graduated from Creighton University, so the Jesuit influence in my mom and dad and what that meant for us in our lives, it's indescribable, but it filtered through all our lives. My mom also gave great credit to the Ursulines who taught her in high school. So, there was never an emphasis on money although my dad worried about having enough quite often. And when there are 12 children I think that's a legitimate worry. God and faith were important and Catholic was important but there was a great respect for other faiths. JK: And how was there a great respect for other faiths? [00:02:05] TB: One time I remember. We were in the days when people would say only Catholics went to heaven, and my mother said, "Oh, don't you ever say that. That's not right." And in our community you were either Lutheran or Catholic mostly, and the Lutherans were as committed to their faith as we were to ours. So, yes, that is an example of that. JK: Thank you. TB: Now, do I talk about my siblings here and the farm? JK: Sure. I mean we can be informal about this. TB: Ok. So, from my experience siblings are the best gift that your parents give you. And those precious relationships that I had with my 11 siblings continue, just the assurance of all these people who love you when you grow up in a family where the relationships were honored and nurtured. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 2 of 24 JK: How far apart were you? [00:03:00] TB: Nineteen years for the 12 of us. I'm number three. My oldest sister was in nursing school when my youngest brother was born. JK: So, just 19 years. TB: Right. And he was two when I left home which was very hard for me. I was on the older end so I loved the younger ones and cared for them but I was never their parent. My mom and dad were always the parents. And we had the farm, the luxury of all that space and all the places to adventure. Of the responsible jobs I'd say that truly made a difference for the family if you got the eggs, if you watered the calves and then the riding the tractors and in the grain trucks and the wagons. Our dad took us along a lot. And to this day I never get enough of being outside. JK: Really. And yet you live in the city. [00:04:03] TB: And I live in the city. That's right. (Laughter) TB: And one of my favorite things today is still to go to my brother's at planting and harvest time and ride with them on the tractors and the combines and in the trucks. JK: Oh, yes. That would be fun. Did you go to school in town close to where your farm was? [00:04:24] TB: I went to a one-room country school, K through 8. It was a half a mile from our home and we walked to school and back. Then went to high school at Sacred Heart in Falls City where the Sisters of Charity taught. There were 26 in my graduating class. JK: Did you board or was it close enough to ride to? [00:04:44] TB: It was close enough to go back and forth. It was nine miles. JK: And the SCLs taught at the school. [00:04:53] TB: They taught at the school, yes, and they taught me—very, very good teachers. And my writing that I've used for years, Sister Patricia and Sister Leo Therese, who's now Sister Mary Lou Mendel, taught me those skills that I continue. The skills that are foundational for me I continue to use. But also, I learned at the country school. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 3 of 24 JK: So, was that where you were first attracted to religious life, in high school or where? [00:05:23] TB: I'd say I was not attracted to religious life. JK: Oh. TB: I liked the SCLs and I respected them, but I had a call and it was an unmistakable call. And though I wasn't pleased, God is God and I answered. My decision came totally out of that call. JK: Really. And how did you feel that call? [00:05:48] TB: How did I feel it? JK: Yes. TB: I can tell you the moment. I was riding home on the school bus from a ballgame and… A priest in our high school, Father Kallen (phonetic) said to me, "I ask this of everybody, but do you think you have a vocation?" And that was kind of the first—what do I want to say?—blip on the screen, and I said, "Well, I'm not saying I don't but I'm going to go to college first." And then he said, "If you have a vocation cherish it like a wet lily pad." And I said to him, "Am I supposed to cherish a wet lily pad?" I remember it. JK: (Laughs) TB: But that didn't leave me. And coming home on the school bus that night in the dark and with tears I heard the call and I responded. JK: And did you join the community right after…? TB: High school. JK: Right after high school? [00:06:48] TB: Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And I add that I was graced with… Once I was here I'm not saying I never struggled with the vocation, but it was not primary for me at all, any struggles, I was at peace. It was very hard leaving but I was at peace. JK: And when did you join? [00:07:11] TB: 1963. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 4 of 24 JK: Oh. So that was early. So, you couldn't go for home visits or anything of that sort. TB: That's right. That's right. JK: That must have been very difficult. [00:07:21] TB: Very difficult. JK: Were there any other siblings who went into religious life? [00:07:31] TB: No. I have no other sibling that entered religious life. JK: Oh. Ok. What do you remember about your early ministry at St. Vincent's Home in Topeka, and how did that experience affect you? [00:07:50] TB: Can I go back to Vatican II for a moment? JK: Sure. TB: Ok. JK: Oh, I'm sorry. We left that out, didn't we? TB: I was fascinated in ways with Pope John XXIII, so he became a hero of mine, and my religious name was John Paula. And I had all kinds of reasons for being John, but we had to get it on a three-by-five card so I narrowed it down to that it was for the love of John the XXIII and the zeal of St. Paul. But so the structure after Vatican II changed from all of us doing the same thing at the same time and one of the welcomed things was we went from superiors who had a lot of discretionary power to more personal responsibility for each of us. I personally resisted the habit change. The superior told us at one point that we had to change where I was. And so I did. JK: And why did you resist it? [00:08:51] TB: That interesting… Well, I resist a lot and then I get there. And so that's kind of a theme of my life. So, it was welcomed to have an ability to connect with our families and to eat with them and to go home. JK: And how soon did that come? You joined in… [00:09:11] TB: '63. I asked Mother Leo Frances in '66 if I could go home to my brother's graduation which she allowed me to do, but you just go over night. I asked to go to my parent's 25th wedding �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 5 of 24 anniversary. Again, you just go over night. But she gave me permission to do those things. But it was still pretty constrained and I kind of now have forgotten the rhythm. But I was stationed in Los Angeles for six years, from '66 to '72. So, I was far away from the center of the community, but the real difficult thing was when so many Sister friends left. JK: I'll bet. I'll bet that was really hard. Of your class, for example, how many left? [00:10:04] TB: We started with 50, although Sister Susie (phonetic) always said one person only… she just came overnight. She never did even file down her fingernails. (Laughter) TB: But we had 50. But when we celebrated our Golden Jubilee there were four of us. JK: Only four. TB: Yes, and now there are three. JK: Oh, my gosh. How did you deal with that because you were losing Sister after Sister at a certain period of time? Would that have been the early 70s then or what? [00:10:43] TB: Right, because in Los Angeles at one of the years—I can't necessarily remember which one—oh, let me see, it was '69 maybe. JK: Ok. TB: That two Sisters came that I lived with were there and on December 8th, I remember it was the Holy Day, and they came in to tell me they were leaving. Yes. I don't know. You just dealt, I guess. And an interesting thing I want to mention was that one Sister was sent to L.A. to live with us because the leaders felt she was a rebel rouser and really she was a forward thinker, and she's in the community to this day. JK: Oh, really. [00:11:24] TB: But Los Angeles, we were somewhat out of the mainstream when we were out there compared to around here. And that was quite a time. JK: Did you ever entertain any thoughts of leaving? [00:11:39] TB: I'd say not really seriously, no. I struggled with the faithfulness to stay a couple times but never really seriously, and that was a grace. JK: Thank you. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 6 of 24 TB: So, I'm willing to go to St. V's now. JK: Ok. TB: St. Vincent's. JK: What do you remember about St. Vincent's and your experience there in Topeka? [00:12:03] TB: It changed me for life. JK: Oh really. TB: Yes. Both in what the children taught me and the quality of community life those nine years. I would just say there was a depth to our community life and part of it I think was because of the intensity of working with the kids all day. JK: Was this when it was an orphanage or was this when it was a home for troubled… TB: It was the home for troubled kids. JK: …troubled kids? [00:12:28] TB: And their stories were as different as the 24 of them. But the community life those years was a depth that I've not experienced ever since. But we worked hard; we prayed deeply, and we had fun together. And it was a very special time and I still have bonds with some of those… deep bonds with those women. And I'd say the children gave me a doctorate in incarnational theology. They taught me of the pain and suffering and the potential for grace in brokenness. They entered me into a world completely foreign to me from my life on the farm. The first staffing I attended was on an 11year-old girl that her father had prostituted. A student I taught had been kicked out of three kindergartens, and he was eight years old and he couldn't read the word "me." A child who had lived in 12 foster homes—she was 14. And the list goes on. Now, remember I'm the third in a family of 12. I was used to kids doing what I asked them to do, and these kids absolutely ignored me. It was just like I was shocked. I'd tell them to do something. They just looked at me and did the opposite. And I hadn't been teased about my buck teeth since grade school, but these kids pointed it out. I said that I identified with the woman in the Gospel who was giving her two pennies and Jesus talked about those who gave out of their abundance and then she gave out of her need. And I thought, boy, in this situation I am giving out of my need. It was a challenge. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 7 of 24 JK: Do you have any happy ending stories with the kids that you've dealt with? [00:14:26] TB: Well, my Gary when I come… JK: Oh, ok. TB: …to tell you about. I keep touch with Yvonne. So, those are probably the two of the kids and Gary's brother, Michael, who has since died. JK: Good. And then you were at Topeka State Hospital for a time, and that might have been a challenging experience. What do you remember from that? [00:14:53] TB: Well, my first year at Topeka State I took Clinical Pastoral Education which is CPE. And it was a great foundation really for the rest of my life. It taught me to reflect with a group on my personal strengths and weaknesses in being a chaplain. And in that program they do not hold back on what your weaknesses are. So, it was not an easy year but a very good year in terms of teaching me about myself and the way I ministered. Then for the next 13 years I was a Catholic chaplain there. And it happened that when I finished my CPE training the priest who was to come to be the Catholic chaplain at the hospital and do the weekly Catholic service at the prison, he left. And so I asked the head priest in the region if I could have that position. They didn't have a priest for it. And he said yes. So, that's how I moved into that and it was part-time. JK: And was this a mental hospital? [00:15:57] TB: Yes. It was a mental hospital. JK: It was. Ok. That's what I was assuming but then I was sort of thinking maybe it wasn't. TB: The patients there taught me their ability to worship as a community, because every Sunday we had a communion service, their ability to care about each other and participate in that. They also taught me the heavy burden that mental illness is both for them and for their families. I can't say that enough, of what a burden. And, again, I encountered kids, most of them who were there for behavior reasons more than mental illness, and most of them had no family connections. JK: And then not long after that they opened the mental hospitals and sent everybody out. TB: That's right. JK: And what was your reaction to that? [00:16:52] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 8 of 24 TB: They went to the prisons and the jails, 'cause prisons and jails can't say no to them. So, there's a lot of quite good research that says how many of the people in our prisons and jails are mentally ill. JK: Really. TB: And I remember the sheriff in Johnson County, which is right south of where I live, the rich county—his name is Frank Denning—saying publicly, "I run the biggest mental health system in the state." JK: Oh, my gosh. TB: In his jail. So, people are trying to do more and more kind of interceding before people get to the jail. There is some push toward that in our country. This was interesting. During my time at Topeka State I met and talked with Dr. Karl Menninger. I don't know if people here know who Dr. Karl Menninger was, but he was an internationallyknown psychiatrist. And I had a personal relationship with him, in fact. JK: Oh, you did. TB: Yes. And he had great empathy for people who were imprisoned and wrote that book called something about the sin of punishment or… And he went to the prisons and talked to the prisoners. In fact, at one point in the days when the prisons were a little freer than they are now—I can't imagine them letting me do this now—but I was connected with the minimum security prison through worship, and I took three of the men from the Stop Violence group, put them in my car, took them out to visit with Dr. Karl… JK: Really. [00:18:49] TB: …at the Menninger Foundation. And I ended up being at his bedside in the days before he died. JK: Really. TB: Yes. Anyway, he had great empathy with them. JK: I haven't heard that name for a long time. You probably should spell it for the transcriber. TB: K-A-R-L, Dr. Karl, and M-E-N-N-I-N-G-E-R. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 9 of 24 JK: Thanks. You've been involved in social justice, a ministry that I really admire personally. When did you realize you wanted to take part in changing society for the better? [00:19:41] TB: As I reflect when I made my first communion at eight years old I prayed for an end to the Korean War. JK: Oh, really. TB: I don't even know how quite I was aware of that. But I remember that specifically. And as a high schooler I was aware of the mistreatment of people who were black, especially noted that some motels allowed dogs but not people who were black. That was an underlying thing. So, perhaps God's spirit in me was nudging me early on to be an advocate. And then the Sisters of Charity in the days when I was teaching school in Los Angeles and then taking care of kids at St. Vincent's. Like our Sister Eileen Sheehy, along with many other faith leaders, answered the call of Dr. King to come and join them in walking across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. I think I'm remembering that incident correctly. JK: Really. TB: And we have her picture doing that. JK: Was she injured? [00:20:50] TB: No. JK: Good. TB: He asked them to come after they had been met walking across that with the fire hoses and the dogs. So, at that point it went peacefully, I think. And I don't know specifically about the '60s and '70s, but I know Sister Marie de Paul Combo, who was my mentor and a leader among us SCLs, she was a leader to call us to live out our constitution where it said we commit to justice and charity. And she highlighted the distinction. Charity is giving to people; justice is looking at why people are poor, why people have these needs and looking at more systemic things. And Marie de encountered lots of resistance. Social justice really was a bad word throughout a lot of the community. JK: Is that right? TB: But she trudged on through it all calling us… JK: I was going to ask why was there resistance. [00:21:58] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 10 of 24 TB: I think people felt like that as a religious that wasn't our job. JK: I see. Charity was but social justice was out of the realm. TB: But she called us to boycott the grapes for the farm workers. She called us to advocate for debt relief at the turn of the century. She called us to advocate against the welfare reform that was being proposed in 1996. She had the total community make a statement against the death penalty. She just kept at it. And she tried to get us to understand the power of institutions like the World Bank. And the good of people like the United Nations. And to this day I stand on her shoulders. JK: Oh, that's wonderful. And how much older was she than you at the time? [00:22:55] TB: She's in her 90s now, and I'm 72, so she's probably 20 years older than I am. JK: Right. Ok. TB: And she came from a background that her father was a union man for the Butte mines in Butte, Montana. JK: Oh, wow. Yes. TB: But she was dogged in her not giving up when it would have been easy to give up. JK: And so you stood with her. TB: Not always, no. No. She did that. I got into that circle at some point. When the community decided to have a Social Justice Committee in the community and I was one of the beginning members of that committee. And I even forget what date that was but Sister Mary Kathleen Stefani was our leader at that time. JK: Great. So, what were your early experiences in advocating for social justice? What issues did you take up? [00:23:57] TB: So my chaplaincy at the hospital and at the prison, and that was just on Sundays, was a halftime position. So I asked the community if I could volunteer two days at the Emergency Center for the poor in Topeka. And through that I got connected to the capitol and some of the issues around poverty in the Kansas Legislature. So, I asked if I could spend those two days during the legislative session that I spent at the Emergency Center, if I could spend those at the capitol. And that happened in 1987 which was the year that we had a new governor in Kansas who said he was going to have a death penalty bill signed on his desk by March the 1st. And I have to say that I just noted to me… I was concerned because we had elderly losing care because of our budget �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 11 of 24 issues. We had farmers losing their farms because of… and we're talking about the main priority is the death penalty? It was a political wedge in those days. And in the past six or eight years the legislature had passed death penalty bills but then-Governor John Carlin always vetoed them. So, it seemed like a shoe-in to get this passed. So, I started with the death penalty issue in the Kansas Legislature. And it began to teach me the system. So, the House passed a bill to reinstate the death penalty. The senators went slower and I think that myself with another young man named Michael, who really taught me how to even find these offices, we talked to every senator and six senators changed their vote, so we had a vote that they did not reinstate the death penalty. JK: Really. [00:26:12] TB: And in some ways that was not a good introduction to legislative work because most things you worked on for years. And I remember Father John Stitz, who was a great friend of the Sisters and worked farm issues in the legislature, calling me up the night of the vote and saying, "I am so jealous, because I can't believe that you all got this in your first year." Well, one of the big things I learned is that things come back. So, the next year they're back at trying to get the death penalty reinstated. I was just shocked. After you do all that it's back the next year. Another thing in 1998 when I was working with the Kansas Catholic Conference they had a big tax bill they were working on. And the Conference—and I was the lead person in the Conference with this—advocated for a refundable earned income tax credit in the Kansas tax system, so it would add to what people get from the federal earned income tax. And it was basically for lowincome working parents. And still today that puts nearly 90 million dollars in the pockets directly of low-income working parents who file their tax returns and have earned income. [00:27:31] Then in 2004 one of the issues that we worked… We began to work the immigration issues and Kansas was one of the first states to give in-state tuition to young people who are not citizens but who graduated from high school, and they could go to any Regents university for in-state tuition. JK: Interesting. TB: Yes. People can hardly believe that. So, some of the things I learned about that was that in the legislature you have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in advocacy and among the legislators. You never really know who your friend might be. And you might win one year and next year you're back at it. Like I'm saying, every year there is always an effort to repeal the in-state tuition and an effort to repeal the refundable income credit. JK: But they haven't passed yet. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 12 of 24 TB: They haven't passed. Just this past year again the earned income tax credit we have… JK: So, your legislature then must be somewhat liberal, much more so than I thought if they're not passing that. [00:28:42] TB: (Laughs) No, you've heard rightly. On the immigration issues we have a strong business coalition. JK: Oh, I see. TB: They're not necessarily out in front like on the in-state tuition but they'll talk about it behind the doors, and they are the people who give money to these legislators. And plus the education community has been very strong. The Regents—we've had Regent leaders who come in. And these are also people that legislators know. So it's been a miracle that, right, the in-state tuition and that we've held onto that and the earned income tax credit. And to be fair that Governor Brownback behind the scenes, he didn't want an in-state tuition repeal on his desk. JK: He didn't. TB: No, no. No. I mean he's not going to come out front about it. And he behind the scenes said we're not going to do anything to refundable earned income tax credits. But I've learned that I always need a team and I'm a good team member. Also, another thing I've learned legislators are called to do an incredible amount of listening. I mean it has to get boring because it's boring to sit there, and I don't have to do it as much as they do. So, when I give testimony I pray to the Holy Spirit to help me be creative and say something to engage them. So, I have this reputation now in the legislature as a testifier that is creative so people… I feel some pressure now that they're listening to what Sister Therese is going to say in her testimony. (Laughs) JK: Oh, that's great. (Laughs) So, you did some personal social justice work in your prison work. Can you tell us about working with the prisoners and what you learned? And then you also mentioned you have an adopted son, Gary. So, if you could tell us a little bit about that part of your life. [00:30:51] TB: Ok. JK: And social justice too. TB: I trace my prison work back to my Grandpa Bukoff (phonetic) who was on the Falls City City Council, and he took the responsibility for the jail. He said nobody else wanted it. And he said, "They aren't bad fellows." And he would take them out of the jail and have jobs for them to �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 13 of 24 do and then he would go get them Cokes and candy. So, I say my prison thing came from Grandpa Bukoff (phonetic). So, I started in the prisons in '73 when a Sister from another community invited me. And that led me to go weekly to the Mass at the Topeka prison with the priest. I forget kind of the timing of this but at one point, I say this with humility I hope, but he was a terrible homilist, and it just did not ever connect, from my point of view, with the prisoner's lives. So, I asked him if I could do the homily. And he told me I could. JK: Oh, good. TB: He was pretty forward thinking. Anyway, so I begin to preach in the prisons but nobody cared about who preached in the prisons. So, I did that for years. Then when I took the chaplaincy of the Topeka State Hospital that also included that piece to go weekly to the prison and do the Catholic service. So, I did a communion service which was the liturgy of the Word, really the same structure that we have at Eucharist. And then I would go to the Our Father, to that place, and we would have a communion service. And through the years, the 13 years, they opened a minimum security prison. I took that on every Sunday. And then when they moved the maximum security women from Lansing up here to Topeka I started doing the service there and then trained lay people to do the communion services. And a piece of my prison ministry that I'm most grateful for is that four of the lay people I prepared to do communion services are still at the prisons today ministering there and doing that. So when I left Topeka that continued which I have always felt… JK: That's good. Yes. [00:33:26] TB: I mentioned something that probably not a lot of people know that at one point in my prison ministry at the maximum security diagnostic center a prisoner lingered after the Sunday service and then he grabbed me around the neck. And my response was immediately to push back. And I got away from him and went… moving out of that room and right into a pod of all the men saying, "Officer, officer." And the guy was behind me saying, "Don't tell. Don't tell." And I said, "You've already done it. I'm going to tell." I mean I remember saying that. So, of course investigators talked to me etcetera, etcetera. And my thought was they're going to say at the prison that this little woman can't do this anymore. But, instead, they gave me an officer, so after that I always had an officer in the room with me; before I had not. [00:34:25] So, I go to pray with the prisoners because I need their witness of their faith, those who choose to come. I'm dealing with those who choose to come to a worship. Because of their humility most of them face their sins and their depth in breaking the Word. I've always dialogued with them about what the scripture means for them. Praying with them helps me. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 14 of 24 I've also learned how vulnerable the kids at St. Vincent's are and those like them to ending up in the prison system. How those with mental illness end up there. JK: Was the one that grabbed you around the neck, did he have mental illness, do you think? [00:35:16] TB: I don't know. I kind of presume he did. They told me he had been aggressive with one of the nurses too. JK: Oh, really. TB: Or at least something about women—that he didn't like us. And also how vulnerable so many are to the call of the streets, I call it, and then a system that's ready to eat them up. JK: What do you mean by that, gang activity or being homeless on the streets? [00:35:50] TB: I would mean more gang activity or maybe "gang" in quotes. That you get with your buddies and then the smart buddies don't do the things that get the most time. I mean they have those who are, I want to say, not as smart do the things that… or the young ones go and do things and they get involved in things that are way over their head. And one of the questions, if I might say, you ask about fix for prisons—what would be my take on that. I think we have to continue to work on the systemic causes of poverty. I'd like to see us reinstate the Pell Grants that allow those in prison have education. That's been taken away. And I'd like to see more societal law enforcement energy on white collar crime, 'cause I think you can send people to war on a false pretense and not have any repercussions. And it seems to me at times that kills a lot more people. Or you can cheat the poor and not pay them wages or not pay them living wages. Some of those things to me are things that need more emphasis, 'cause we talk about all the violence is the shooting and the fights and that's not all the violence. Poverty is a violence. JK: And would you include funding education well in that? [00:37:33] TB: Surely, because we know there are great discrepancies in the public schools where I am. And I would say one of the things when I moved to Wyandotte County was my horror at what people got As and Bs for. I mean it's not grades that are important. It's can somebody read? Can somebody think? And so this just passing people along, it's wrong. Yes, I would include… But it's very important that we keep the public education system strong. I can go to Gary now if you're ready for me to go to Gary. (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 15 of 24 JK: Yes. Tell us about Gary. [00:38:21] TB: Gary's been the biggest surprise of all God's gifts to me. Some parts of his story are his to tell. However, I was his childcare worker for him and his younger brother, Michael, when he was nine and Michael was six when I first met them and that was at St. Vincent's Home. I left after a year there but always kept some touch with the two of them. So, when Gary got out of foster care he had no one. I stayed connected and served as his CASA, Court Appointed Special Advocate, in Juvenile Court until he was discharged at 21. And one day he introduced me to a friend as his mom. Well, I kept my startle to myself but I continued our walk. And once you give me that title he was stuck with me. Although I'd say along the way he would have liked to have gotten rid of me. I tell people that his "moming" me was no honorary title that we've walked the walk. He has been one of my favorite and most influential teachers. He's taught me a hint of what it means to belong to no one. A hint of the white privilege that I live with, a hint of the financial struggles of making it on your own, a hint of the emotional challenge of living as an adult with the effects of childhood trauma. And a hint of the burden of racism and the incidents that never quit. And I proudly claim him as my son, as a wonderfully compassionate person who's very much respected in his profession as a fine dining waiter. JK: Oh, that's great. So, where does he live now? [00:40:26] TB: He lives in… well, really he lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. JK: Oh. TB: He works in Old Scottsdale but had been in Tempe for nine years and recently moved. JK: Sounds like he's done very well. TB: I don't ever want to undermine his struggle but, yes, he has. JK: You mentioned it in your bio form that you filled out so he must mean a lot to you. [00:40:59] TB: Yes, I'm his mom. And in my family kids are tops. So, yes. JK: Oh, that's great. TB: He's been a surprise gift, as I say. JK: Going back to the death penalty, why do you think it's been so difficult particularly in certain states to overcome this horrible practice? [00:41:32] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 16 of 24 TB: My experience is that people feel a loyalty to the victims and the victim's family. And most of us, including the legislators, are pretty uncomfortable with those who've lost loved ones to murder. Their pain is very raw. So, when they come and talk about it it's very raw. So, to get beyond that, what feels like loyalty to the victims, to a place of the reality of the death penalty… like Sister Helen Prejean says there are three things that get you on death row. You're poor; you killed a white person and who your lawyer is. Pope Francis recently just in the last couple months said the death penalty is a mortal sin. That's the strongest church statement we've ever had on this issue. I've been working against it since 1987. I have almost daily contact with the issue in some way, and you won't convince me that it's helpful to anybody. Although I advocate for replacing it with life in prison without parole I have to say that deep in my spirit I have concerns about life in prison without parole too. I think some people, for the safety for themselves and the community, need a structured environment for the rest of their lives. I'm not sure everyone does. And I remind people that in the Scriptures that we hear we hear from Moses who killed in a burst of emotion. We hear from Paul who killed, was a murderer. We hear from David. I pray his psalms daily, his songs (phonetic). David had the most planned, calculated, premeditated murder of Uriah and not just Uriah but his troops, of anybody and the love that came to his heart in his asking for forgiveness. My other example is when Jesus was on the cross with the two others and this one man who society thought was so terrible they should kill him recognized not only that Jesus was innocent but also that he had a Kingdom that was not of this world. And I think he brought Jesus great comfort when they're hanging there naked. And Jesus must have thought what's this all about? I think he brought Jesus great comfort in that recognition. So, those are some of the core things that keep me involved in this issue. JK: And yet there are so many people that are adamant that it should remain. [00:44:54] TB: That has changed some in past years, and there are fewer death penalties being given in the United States, but people in Europe think we're just crazy... JK: I know. TB: …that we have the death penalty yet. Yes. It's a tough issue. And really my involvement with the death penalty was one of the reasons when I came to Wyandotte County besides a friend of many or our Sisters, Marianne Slattery in the district attorney's office in Wyandotte County, said, "Therese, I think you should consider being a police chaplain." And I thought I don't want people saying that naïve Sister (I don't like the word nun) that naïve Sister doesn't know what she's talking about when she talks about what the church says about violence and the death penalty etcetera. Even though with police chaplaincy I've been to many homicide scenes I've never been convinced that more violence or the violence of the death penalty is a solution to any of this. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 17 of 24 JK: So, for the past 21 years, I believe you said, you've been a police chaplain. [00:46:03] TB: Right. JK: So, you've been on the other side. TB: Yes. JK: This is really interesting. Well, you just mentioned how you kind of got into it. What exactly do you do as a police chaplain? [00:46:20] TB: So, for about 17 years for 48 hours a month I would carry the police beeper and if they had a call during that time whether it was two o'clock in the afternoon or two o'clock in the morning they would beep you and ask you to come to the scene. So, I say is that in my life before that I always had the protection of a system around me or a structure like a hospital, even in the prison there's a structure. But you are right at the scene so there's no protection for any of that. So, you go to the scene and as one of the men who I really liked, the chaplain said, "I get a tightness in the pit of my stomach every time that beeper goes off. But I say, ok, God. I'll get myself there and you have to take over from there." And that's really… 'cause there's no playbook to tell you how to deal with the scenes. So, you go to the scene and… JK: I'm sorry. Where are you working in Kansas City? [00:47:28] TB: Kansas City, Kansas, in Wyandotte County. JK: Kansas City, Kansas. TB: And you go to the scene and the Holy Spirit is faithful, and you learn a lot about Jesus and the Holy Spirit at those scenes that you don't learn any place else. And sometimes you're just standing there with chaplain on your back. Lots of times you look for some person in the family that might be a connection for you to reach out to the family. JK: The victim's family. TB: The victim's family. JK: Ok. TB: And sometimes you can be somewhat helpful about… that the body's still laying on the ground and they have to wait 'til they take all their pictures and until the morgue comes to pick the body up and that always seems to take a long time. So, you can just say that they need to do �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 18 of 24 their investigative work, pick up the evidences so it can't be contaminated. One of the hardest things is ordinarily they don't let the victim see the body. JK: Oh, they don't. [00:48:39] TB: Not at the scene or even in the hospital and that's a really difficult thing for family members. Very difficult. And we've worked on that but it's very difficult for them. JK: What has it been like to work with the police? How do you see the police in Kansas City, Kansas? Kansas. [00:49:04] TB: Yes. I'm not naive that there are some bad police officers, but my experience is that the greatest percent of them are good. And I tell them that good police officers are holy, and I believe that deeply. Who deals with the poor in the community? It’s the police. It's a call just like my call. And recently I had a detective say to me, "Nobody leaves this job without having posttraumatic stress syndrome." One thing that I say when people tell me with the death penalty we have it to protect police. I say, "Are you aware that more police die from suicide than from homicide? What are we doing to support them in," I say, "just the bruising and the daggers in their spirit with the things that they encounter day after day?" JK: Do you spend time with them after a traumatic incident ever? [00:50:14] TB: I'm a woman so most of them don't want me to do that, if I can say that bluntly. Although around Detective Lancaster's murder which happened last May I've been able to have some conversations with detectives that I've never had before that were very important to me, and I think important to them. JK: What was the story of Detective Lancaster's murder? [00:50:43] TB: He was shot by a man named Curtis Ayers when he approached him because the Hollywood Casino had called and said we have a person that we're concerned about. And Mr. Ayers had a gun and he shot Detective Lancaster and took his car. And Detective Lancaster died at KU Hospital. So, with an incident like that I got a text that said a police officer's been shot. If you're available please go to police headquarters. And police headquarters is two blocks from my office so I vigiled with mostly the women in the detective bureau that are their support staff for that. And we thought that Detective Lancaster was doing fine and then he wasn't, and then we got word that he died. So, I have walked that walk with them and walked anniversary time. I've observed his widow saying that she agreed to the plea of life in prison without parole. So, Detective �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 19 of 24 Lancaster was murdered in May of '16. The person who pled guilty, Mr. Ayers, was sentenced in March of 2017 and that was completed. And I didn't have any police officer, and I checked with five to ten, say, oh, he should have had the death penalty. They respected her decision and one of them said to me, "It's God's place to judge not mine." Another one said, "We make mistakes. I don't think the death penalty is necessarily a good idea." And they all know all the legal procedures that happen so it stretches on and on. So, again, I learned. I learned. JK: So, you mentioned your being a woman had a bearing on working closely with the detectives. Have you been able to form close relationships with any of them and what kind of…? [00:53:09] TB: I wouldn't call them close relationships. I would say that I have very respectful relationships with a number of them. I wouldn't call them close relationships. But I've made myself available. On the day that Detective Lancaster was shot and one of the police officers who was with him, another police officer wanting to help him said, "Sister, will you come with me and offer to visit with him." So, I went in and he wasn't interested in visiting with me. One of the women up in the department said, not a woman police officer but a support staff said, "You're a woman. I'm used to that all the time." So, it's still a man's profession although there are a lot of women there, and I also respect them. JK: But no women police detectives. [00:54:02] TB: Oh, yes. There are women police detectives. JK: But not in this particular office. TB: Yes. Uh-huh. There are. JK: Oh, there are. TB: But it wasn't the woman who had been directly with the police officer, who had been with Detective Lancaster when he was shot. JK: Do you have anything else to share about your police…? Oh, you mentioned earlier where you live with the Sisters in doing your work. [00:54:49] TB: As Sisters of Charity we have an intentional house that was at 8th and Quindaro, which in Kansas City Quindaro was known as Blood Boulevard at one point because it was a high violence area. And we moved into the old rectory which was next to Our Lady of St. Rose �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 20 of 24 Church, Catholic Church at 8th and Quindaro. So, it began with five of us. When I left last year there were just two of us left. Really, I was going to be the last one left. But we intentionally lived there in the low income, high violence area to be a presence there. And we went out from there to do all our different things. Again, you learn. Just being in that neighborhood you learn a lot. And you learn the quality of the grocery stores. JK: For example. [00:55:43] TB: For example… For one thing they're more expensive. They're dirty. The quality of the food. You get the things that are dented and the things that are close to date of "Best by" if they're not "Best if used by." And you just notice those things. And then eventually those all closed and it's at least a half an hour to a grocery store. People in that neighborhood don't walk for exercise. They walk because that's how a number of them get around. The children, you don't see them outside a lot. There's a swimming pool that's on Quindaro that's four blocks down that I worked with all my years there for one thing—to get them not to close it at six o'clock and to have them open until eight o'clock at least. And then you see the kids come out and walk to the swimming pool. But lots of you say where are these kids coming from? Or when they get on their school busses but you don't see them at other times. By the time we left a lot of immigrants were integrating into that neighborhood and rebuilding the ramshackle houses. JK: Oh, were they? [00:57:10] TB: Yes. So, interesting, yes, interesting changes. JK: And when did you leave? [00:57:16] TB: Last September. September of 2016. JK: Do you live here now? [00:57:22] TB: I live in Kansas City, Kansas yet. JK: Oh, ok. You don't live here at the Mother House. TB: No. I do not. JK: You've also been active lobbying the state legislature and you've worked with the Kansas City Catholic Conference. Can you tell us about that experience and what you've learned in the process? [00:57:49] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 21 of 24 TB: I was brought onto the Catholic Conference team to advocate on poverty issues which I did for a number of years and I've forgotten how many. Then our director died of cancer, and after two years under the new director I was informed that they had restructured and they no longer would have my position. So most of us know what restructuring means. (Laughter) TB: The new director with the support of the bishops narrowed the issues we worked on to what really, at that time, were the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops priorities—abortion, gay marriage, religious freedom. JK: Oh. TB: So, as one of the Catholic legislators noted when SCLs allowed me then to lobby in their name it really left me freer. It was a gift of the spirit. So, I could go back to lobbying on the issues of poverty. And I would note that there is significant angst among some of the legislators who are Catholic about the seeming non-voice of the Conference of issues that impact people in poverty. So, I carry the water, in a sense, for the church about those issues, and I'm grateful for that role but that's a tension that's… The church has such a rich tradition of Catholic social teaching and now the words of Pope Francis about the poor. And as SCLs we had Vincent and Louise and Mother Xavier and our rich tradition, so I'm grateful to be a voice within these traditions for the Gospel Values. JK: It's fortunate that you're there, that you are the voice. [00:59:39] TB: It's a gift to be there. I've been there 30 years. And I'd like to mention here the teamwork that I've done with justice leaders of Sisters in five of the Sister communities that are located here in Kansas. So, if something comes up in the legislature I email them out and we physically met at times. And I rely on good info, at times from Catholic Charities, from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and in particular Network which is the Catholic Sisters Social Justice Lobby that was begun. I think we must be close to 50 years now. JK: The New York Times recently published an article about liberal religions working together for change. How have you found that experience? Or do you have that experience, and what types of projects have you worked on together? [01:00:44] TB: I have to say I don't like the word "liberal." JK: Ok. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 22 of 24 TB: I prefer… Now, people would probably call me liberal. I like to say I'm not Democrat or Republican. I'm for policy and advocate for what promotes the common good, because to me liberal gives a label that is not positive to some people. JK: To some people that's true. TB: Just like conservative gives a label that's not positive to some people, and really I don't like either of those labels. JK: Ok. TB: So, I would say I've done more ecumenical work than I have interfaith, and that's, I think, from being in Kansas for one thing. So, for over a decade I have planned with the United Methodist Women their day, their advocacy day that they do at the capitol. And anyway I've been part of their planning team to do that. I should say the United Methodist Women are the leaders of it but other faiths are invited. The Church World Service women are invited. But at the same time I've worked with a woman of the Jewish faith who led the efforts in Johnson County around public school funding. This past year Kansas Interfaith Action had a Muslim day at the capitol. So, those things might be increasing. I say the broader we can make the tent for the common good the better off we are. So I invite those kinds of interactions, and, again, I learn. I really don't know that much about the Muslim religion. So, those are ways that I can learn. JK: How has prayer facilitated your work? [01:02:55] TB: I say that prayer is the patchwork quilt that covers all my work. And my mother had a great devotion to the Holy Spirit. So, that seed was planted in me and I depend on the Holy Spirit in my work. I've always loved the Psalms and the Gospels and they feed me and send me. And as I've gotten older my prayer has fewer words and more silence but I still have many distractions. Community prayer with my Sisters is important to me and vital. So, yes, I say that prayer is at the center and my relationship with our God. JK: And you pray with your community and how else has your community supported you over the years? [01:03:55] TB: I would say Sister Sue Miller who was our leader for12 years and then a councilor. She was my councilor before that. She, when I was in Topeka, when I asked her if I could volunteer two days a week at the Emergency Center she said yes. When I asked her if I could change that from the Emergency Center to go to the legislature she said yes. And at one point when I shared with her my concern that you seem to get more attention in this community for being sick than you do for having courage she offered to come to the legislature with me, and she did. So, those were all significant for me. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 23 of 24 JK: Sure. Yes. TB: So, when you look at the array of things I've done I could never have done those without the community support. For one thing they clothe me, and they feed me, and they house me, and they see that I have a car that gets me back and forth to Topeka and other places. JK: And they support you emotionally I'm sure. [01:05:05] TB: Exactly, exactly. And then most recently Sister Eileen Haynes who's the councilor that I touch base with is very supportive of my advocacy work. And I would say Sister Maureen Hall who was our community leader for six years, she was my councilor when we made the move into Quindaro and she helped me when one of the leaders said, "Oh, Therese, you're going to move into this house. It has a hole in the wall," you know. And, "Do you think you could find another house in the community?" But it was Maureen who understood the importance of the connection next to the church, you know. So, we fixed the hole in the wall and then we have a lovely home which children in the neighborhood called a palace. JK: Yes. So, if St. Vincent and Louise visited you today would he recognize the SCL? Would they recognize the SCL as theirs? [01:06:12] TB: I hope Louise and Vincent would recognize us. But we live in a lot of abundance. I live in abundance. I have health insurance. We know what an issue that is for so many people. I have a car that runs. I have a home where the bills are paid without worry. But the passion and the service continue, and I'd just like to quickly share two stories from Sunday. I walked in the door on Sunday for our Jubilee celebration with Sister Judith Hayes, and she said to me, "Therese, you've made me a political radical." JK: (Laughs) TB: "I'm calling those senators," she said. "I've got Mitch McConnell's number in my phone. I have his phone number in my phone. And I have Senator John McCain. I have his number in my phone. You've made me a political radical." JK: (Laughs) TB: And then told me a couple of things she said which were right on, you know. Then later in the afternoon I ran into one of our… Sister Anne Callahan who just had her 88th birthday. And she said, "Therese, I always call when you send out those alerts, because I pray and I ask Jesus, and I say I can't ask Jesus to do something if I'm doing nothing." So, that example of the passion that's still there for the poor, for the poor, I know Louise and Vincent would recognize that. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 24 of 24 JK: Absolutely. TB: The abundance is a question. JK: And our last question is what do you think is the future of religious life in general and the SCLs in particular? [01:0810] TB: I think for me the question is what's the future for God's Kingdom? And I see and hear people, not Sisters, doing what I believe is the work of God's heart and hands without calling it what I call it. I think of three national, international organizations in particular and the people who staff them. Jubilee USA which works on debt relief issues for countries where they pay more on their debt and the interest on their debt than they do for healthcare and education in their countries because of unscrupulous leaders and unscrupulous hedge fund buyers who already have more money than they need, but Jubilee USA works that. I think of the Nonviolent Peace Force which came out of the inspiration of a man from the United States, and I forget where the other man was from, but they have people that are like the army except they're not armed. And they go in to negotiate in these places of violence to bring a place where people can safely come together to bring safety to like women that are going out to get firewood etcetera. But that whole concept of a nonviolent peace force to me is the work of a Kingdom. Then there's the Center for Justice and Accountability. Their primary staff recruits pro bono lawyers who go after the higher ups in the human rights abuses. So, they're the people that are looking at who murdered Archbishop Romero, who caused some of the massacres in El Salvador. They just have had a case about Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge or… I don't know if I'm saying the name right. But they're doing bold and much more courageous things than me. And I believe that those are about the Kingdom. So, I believe God's spirit is alive and well in the world. I've been gifted to be a SCL and I'm gifted to serve here, but I'm not worried about what's ahead and I don't know what's ahead but I know the Kingdom, God's Kingdom will continue to come. JK: Thank you so much. TB: Thank you. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bangert, S. Therese Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:11:21 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bangert, S. Therese, Oral History, 6/29/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Social Justice; Chaplain; Vatican II Description An account of the resource Sister opens her interview by speaking about her family and upbringing in Nebraska. She mentions that the teachers at her local school were SCLs, creating an early introduction to the community. Initially resistant to the idea of religious life, she clearly remembers the moment she was called to the community during a school trip. In her reflections on her early days in the community, she speaks about the modernization brought about by Vatican II and the difficulties of losing close friends as they chose to leave the community. Her initial posting at St. Vincent's home taught her about the struggles people face as a result of social injustices. She later worked at the Topeka State Hospital, trained as a chaplain, and worked in prison ministry. The trajectory of her mission work illustrated how people can become trapped in the system and drew her to be involved in the Social Justice Committee. While working in Topeka, she also became involved in political issues such as immigration and the death penalty. She also speaks of her adopted son, Gary, and the lessons he has taught her. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bangert, S. Therese; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/29/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Bangert, S. Therese; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1945-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Social Service https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c501074bb1e267bf10d86c281bb33db0.jpg d43468ab3d80b26ac16069ade021d925 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f29fc2c7f9ed96551fc325b64641a5e4.mp3 40db3f9ff0fc561ec995da25272a7e63 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b42296bc642a9228b3d4d4426c5dfd23.pdf 72332bc44d7c96d8c627306ab00b73ce PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Teresa Orbegozo, SC Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel, SC January 1980 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 30, 2020 Sr. Mary Teresa: So, Sister, what year did you enter in the community? Sr. Teresa Miriam: I entered on September 8th, 1922. Sr. Mary Teresa: Now, what was the community doing at that time? Sr. Teresa Miriam: Well, I had been all through grammar school with the Sisters of Charity. And then I was with the Dominicans at St. Mary's Academy for high school. Sr. Mary Teresa: What name do you take as a religious name? What name do you... Sr. Teresa Miriam: Well, my name isn't much different from my baptismal name. I was baptized Teresa Maria, but I asked for the name of Sister Teresa Miriam and it was given to me on Christmas night. At midnight Mass we received the habit in 1922. Sr. Mary Teresa: I understand that you went to China, can you explain a little bit of the mission of China in the year that you left the United States? Sr. Teresa Miriam: The call came for volunteers for China through the Passionist priests in [Union City, New Jersey], who had a mission there at the time, and [Mother Mary Alexandrine Jackson] sent a letter to all the missions asking for volunteers and telling them what the situation was because the Sisters of Charity hadn't gone into foreign missions at that time. I was a novice at that time, so that was 1924. So I had no intention of being interested in going to China. But Sister Marie Devota Ross, who had been in the novitiate a year before me, had just been professed that year; she always had the desire of going to the foreign missions. One time I asked her, "How do you ever expect to get to the foreign missions from the Sisters of Charity?" And she says, "Well, I always hoped that they'd expand." Then here, right after she was professed, she applied and was one of the 200 that made the application and she was accepted, that was just a month after she was professed. �Sr. Mary Teresa: So it caught my attention when you said 200 sisters volunteered to go to China… Sr. Teresa Miriam: That's right. Sr. Mary Teresa: That was a beautiful spirit that they show. Sr. Teresa Miriam: And five were accepted. I believe then when they brought the number down some, their names were put in the chalice before the final selection. And then the selection was Sister Mary Finan Griffin, who was the supervisor of the operating room in [Saint Elizabeth Hospital in Elizabeth, New Jersey] and she was the superior. And [Sister Maria Electa McDermott] and Sister Maria Loretta Halligan, Sister Patricia Rose Hurley, and Sister Marie Devota Ross, they were the first band that went to China. Sr. Mary Teresa: So when do you go, Sister? When do you leave? Sr. Teresa Miriam: I was in the second band. I was at Convent the summer that word come that Sister Marie Devota Ross had died of cholera. That was July 29th, 1932. And we had been corresponding and she'd say, "When are you coming to China?" And I would just say, "Oh, sometime." When she died, I said, "Well, I better at least make an effort." So right while I was at Convent that summer, I wrote a letter volunteering to go to China, but there was no answer. And in October a letter went out again, asking for volunteers. I knew I had volunteered earlier, so I did nothing about it. But the week before Christmas, I got a special delivery letter that said I was accepted, and we went in January, the end of January we left Convent. Sr. Mary Teresa: How many of you went? Sr. Teresa Miriam: Five of us went then, and that was Sister Agnes Paula Conefrey, Sister Marie Sebastian Curley, Sister Alma Maria Gilmartin, Sister Mary Carita Pendergast and myself. Sister Electa had been home recuperating from an illness and she was made the sixth sister on our trip to China. It was her second trip. Sr. Mary Teresa: What kind of ministry you had in China? Sr. Teresa Miriam: �Well, they were already established by the first group of sisters. There had been an orphanage, and a catechumenate, and a dispensary. Of course, Sister Finan cared for the dispensary and the visiting of the sick and dispensing of medicine. Sister Patricia Rose was the housekeeper. She overlooked all the needs of the sisters and Sister Devota was the first novice mistress when they had the novice. It was [Sister Marie Therese Tuan]. Sr. Mary Teresa: How would you say that was the experience as a whole, for the community to be in China, to open a new convent for the Sisters of Charity – what that meant for the sisters, for the community as a whole? Sr. Teresa Miriam: Well, I think it was a very wonderful step, I think, and I consider those the best years of my life, when I was in China, both from the work and from the spiritual advantages. Sr. Mary Teresa: So tell me more about that growth that you experienced while you were there. Sr. Teresa Miriam: I have the tape upstairs of the progression of the years, what happened during the years I was... When we were first there, Sister Agnes Paula told me to take care of the financial end, and it was quite an experience to work with the currency, Chinese [unintelligible] and the coppers and all their money, and then transfer it into American amounts. I know that they had an old woman who did the buying with the lot on the street, and doing the buying, she would come back and I’d try to find out how she used the money and then not knowing the Chinese myself, it took me a long time to understand that she was getting that [unintelligible] were eggs and [unintelligible] was chicken and [unintelligible] was pork, and [unintelligible] was a vegetable, but it took some time to find out how that one Chinese dollar was spent, and keep a record of it. Sr. Mary Teresa: Were you challenged, the community over there, to follow the spirit of Saint Vincent de Paul? Like by being so far away from the Motherhouse here in the United States? Sr. Teresa Miriam: Oh, we were very conscious of our heritage and the works of Saint Vincent. Our works were very similar certainly to what he performed with the Ladies of Charity over in France. We had the poorest of the poor; we had the beggars at the gate; we had the infants dying of malnutrition. And then of course, we had the education end, between the two different evacuations. Because of the communists the plan was disrupted. There was quite a time of more or less peace, where we weren't hampered with war, but that lasted... Well, we went in [1933] and we, too, were evacuated to Hankou because of communist aggression. Sr. Mary Teresa: When did you come home after… �Sr. Teresa Miriam: We all came home on June 1st, 1951 after the communists had taken over the hospital, the school, and our own convent. We told them we had no place to go, and they said, "Oh, yes, you do. The Catholic church is down on the main street." That was the bishop's house. So that was the only place. So the bishop gave us five rooms upstairs, and we went there. Our own meals were served upstairs and theirs were downstairs. We had our cook, and they had their cook, so it was quite an experience to live. Sr. Mary Teresa: How was the return of the sisters to the community in United States? Do you feel that you had to adjust yourself again to the type of life that the sisters were having here? Sr. Teresa Miriam: When we came back, we were a few days in San Francisco and a Jesuit priest came and visited us on a few occasions. But before we got on the train to come east, he had a talk with all of us there. And he says, "I know, your hearts are all in China." Now he says, "You're going back to your community. You can either worry all about China, or you can put yourself right into the other works that are waiting for you, and you can either make your life happy or else you can just fade away." So I never forgot that. It was so true. Sr. Mary Teresa: How do you find the years in the community, after you just came from China? Was it hard for you and the other sisters to participate in the works of the community? Sr. Teresa Miriam: Mmmm, no. No, no, they gave us a big reception when we came back and we were given the house that's now the novitiate [Harper House, adjacent to Saint Anne Villa]. We were given that from the 1st of June ‘til September. The nine of us were there and we had the whole run of the house. We could either have our meals there and could prepare them ourselves or we could go over to [Saint Anne Villa], which we did many times, went over and had meals at the Villa. And we had freedom for three months to get back into the swing. And then after three months, we were all missioned somewhere, and I was sent here [Saint Joseph’s Hospital in Paterson, New Jersey] and I've been here ever since. Sr. Mary Teresa: Since… Sr. Teresa Miriam: It was the 1st of September, 1951. Sr. Mary Teresa: '51. That's wonderful, Sister. What do you do now over here in St. Joseph? What kind of… Sr. Teresa Miriam: �Well, I started out as a teacher. I taught for nine years, ten years before I went to China at [Sacred Heart School in the Vailsburg section of Newark, New Jersey]. Because in the school when it was started again after we got there, and I studied a little Chinese first. And then we also tried to absorb some of the medical work in the dispensary and visiting the sick, Sister Finan bringing us and showing us what you do when you visit the sick and how to meet the people. And I didn't get into hospital work until I was home after the bombings. Sister Finan had asked me to ask [Mother Mary Elenita Barry] for sisters for the hospital for xray and laboratory. I didn't even know what either of them meant, but I didn't – after a year or so because the war had broken out then – I didn't see or hear of anyone being prepared. And I was going to the schools and taking collections up on Sundays. I told Mother that school was departmental work and if I learned something about the laboratory or x-ray, maybe I could help out in the hospital if I went back. So she agreed that would be good. Then she let me go to the Hospital of Saint Raphael [in New Haven, Connecticut]. I went to school at St. John's in New Haven, and I stayed at the convent in St. John's and went over every day to the hospital into their laboratory. Now they didn't have a program for medical technologists there, but I was there for about a year and a half, just going from one section to another, with the different technologists. And then as soon as V-J Day came, Sister Carita and I got permission to go to Washington and apply for a visa. And there was a very good friend of Sister Finan's, a Jewish doctor, Dr. Charles Ryan, and he was an officer in the army, too. So through his help in Washington, we made all our applications there. And in October, our passports and visas were issued with special permits from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So all we had to do then was to look for transportation. We had the permit, but we didn't have the transportation. We looked and we got passage on the Marine Fox, a troop ship that had just come in from France with 5,000 soldiers and it was leaving for Shanghai, where it was going to pick up 3,000 and bring them to Seattle. So we got passage on that ship on the trip to Shanghai, and it left on Thanksgiving eve of 1945. So we had Thanksgiving, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, Christmas, and New Years on the water. There weren't that many on the ship going back, going from New York, from the Brooklyn navy yards. There were about 40 of the UNRRA people, the U-N-R-R-A, [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration] group. And there were the wives of a couple of U.S. diplomats from Peking and Tientsin, I think. And there were the three of us [Sisters Teresa Miriam, Mary Carita and Alma Maria]0. It was quite an experience. We were given one cabin that had two tiers of three bunk beds and nothing else. That was all that was there, that and our baggage. And the whole ship was geared, of course, to men. There wasn't a chair. There wasn't anything on the deck. It was all the steel deck. So you would want to take a blanket and try to find a place that you could sit down in the daytime. There were some Protestant ministers, families, a couple of families of missionaries and some of the UNRRA people, they would take mattresses and bring them out, and leave them on the deck. And when it rained, they'd get soaked, so they'd just throw them overboard. The ship was set up for 5,000 soldiers and there was less than 100 on it, on this trip. And we went all the way down the Atlantic through the Panama Canal. And when we got to Honolulu, the ship was detained there day after day because there was no degaussing on it, and the waters were still very dangerous for mines. So the ship would not be permitted to leave until it had the mine-repelling works in operation. So that was the time we were cared for so beautifully by the Sisters of St. Joseph [of Carondelet] from St. Louis. They had a mission in Honolulu. They met us at the ship and insisted on bringing �us up to their place, their convent. And when they found out that, day after day, we were still there, the work wasn't finished, they made us go and stay with them for a couple of nights. They gave us new underwear so we could take baths in their convent because we never saw a bathtub in the whole ship. But they were very kind to us. And if they found out that we were still in port, they were right down to take us and bring us up. One day, we were brought by a Maryknoll priest, Father Hughes, to see the bishop. The bishop said, "Well, that's the answer to the problem!” He said someone came and told him there were three American sisters on the island, and he didn't know whether it was true or what about it, so he was glad when he found out who we were. And he would have been glad for us to stay there, but we weren't interested in staying there. We wanted to get back to our own mission. They were very nice. And another day the director of the Propagation of the Faith came to see us and gave us a check for $250 for foreign mission work. I remembered that because I'm just writing it upstairs. Sr. Mary Teresa: Oh, I see. I see, I see. Yes, yes. Well, that's wonderful, Sister, that you are writing all these things down so the sisters… Sr. Teresa Miriam: Well, I had lot of help in this way that my family kept all the letters I sent. So I took them all back. And in that way I can recall a great many things that you wouldn't otherwise. Sr. Mary Teresa: Yes, yes. Well, Sister, I appreciate all this, just to have the chance to talk to you and share your experiences. Sr. Teresa Miriam: Yeah, I was glad to hear all about you, too. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:23:45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C.; China; Sister M. Carita Pendergast; spirit of St. Vincent de Paul; expulsion from China by communist government; Hawaii; Sisters of Saint Joseph of Carondelet; Marine Fox; Saint Joseph Hospital, Paterson, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's years as a missioner in China; her expulsion by the communist government of China; her return trip to China Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C.; Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1980 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel desribes her years as a missioner in China; her expulsion by the communist government of China; her return trip to China Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 1980 China Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/7036c758f5250569b7a9313df4758586.jpg 249346de0e21a1c7efbede2f1d40b445 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/7f8f3f6f334dde31d704095ddfa1d06d.mp3 2900074c85f9a889bd52664e01ae58e6 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6d59ed82cab1b9c7bf17ce8ff3eaa0d6.pdf 5c613c22494c46a15c892ed7afc07236 PDF Text Text TAPE #252 PRESENTION BY SR JUDITH METZ....10/28/96 SISTER MARIE AGNESE BONANNO Both of Sister's parents were born in Italy, were married in Italy, in fact, they had their first two children while they still in Italy. She says: “When my oldest sister was 2 years of age and my second oldest brother was 6 months old my parents decided to come to America wanting to make a better life for their family. My uncle Bill lived in Cleveland, so my father went and stayed with him until he earned enough money to send for his wife and children. He worked in a canning factory, but the heat made him sick there. Later the moved to Muncie, Indiana where my mother's brother lived. Both of my parents had gone to school in Italy and knew how to read and write.” Sister Marie Agnese, or Anna Maria, which was her baptismal name, was the 6th of 11 children in the Bonanno family. When she was growing up, the family moved to Lima, Ohio. She says, “We had a very happy home-life and enjoyed one another's company. We were poor but we were never hungry. We each had our own small and intimate friends, but I can never remember having a toy to play with because there were 5 older and 5 younger children in the family and I helped care for my younger sisters and brothers. At the direction of my parents, we would call on the elderly women living on our street, and since my father had a grocery store, we would often bring bags of fruit with us to give them. My parents were very active people , loved by their friends, and they were devout Catholics. I used to go to an early Mass every Sunday, then go to a second Mass later just I could go with my father. My parents apparently were kind of leaders in the Italian community in Lima. They used to write letters for the Italians living in Lima who wanted their loved ones backin Italy to know how they were doing in the new land. I can remember my mother writing love letters for some younger men who had left their sweethearts in Italy. Msgr Manning, the Pastor of St. Rose Church, used to ask my father to round up all the Italians in South Lima whenever an Italian priest, or a priest who spoke Italian came to the city to hear confessions or give a mission. My father was a true social worker who constantly helped others to better themselves. Mother worked hard cooking and sewing and taking care of the 11 of us children. During my youth, my father had a grocery store and also had a vegetable and fruit stand in the market house in South Lima, so I decided to go with my older sister to help wait on customers. We all attended St. Rose School in Lima taught by the Sisters of Charity. Some of the teachers were loving and kind, and from their example, especially Sister Martha Marie whom we all loved. I knew, when I was in the 6th grade that I wanted to be a Sister of Charity. I started to go to 6:30 Mass every morning and make the stations of the cross after school. When I finished my sophomore year I decided to enter, otherwise I would lose my vocation. About this time a friend of the family asked my parents for my hand in marriage. When my father told me, I expressed the fact that my only desire was to become a religious. �2 Father Williams wanted me to go to a diocesan community like the Visitation Cloistered Sisters or the Sisters of Mercy in Toledo. But, I wanted to enter the Sisters of Charity. My parents were very helpful in buying my clothes even though they seemed sad because they thought they were losing me. They purchased everything on the list and surprised me with a dollar. My mother made my Postulant outfit with the finest French serge. Because I had never been on a train, my father took me to Dennison, Ohio in May to visit my uncle. The day finally came when I was to leave my parents, brothers and sisters. My last request was that my father, brothers and sisters walk the five blocks to the train station with me. Mother could not go, which made me sad, however, I felt better when, after a block away, I returned home and kissed her goodbye again. At the station were Sister Agnese McGuire , Sister Sarah and Sister Mary Agnes and some of my best friends and neighbors. The day was July 6, 1923 and I was 17 years old.” When she entered the Community, her Mistress was Sister Flavia. “Three months after, I received the brown habit as a Novice and was named Sister Agnese, the name given to me by Mother Irenaea.” After she completed the Novitiate, she was missioned in September of 1924 to Holy Name in Cleveland. When she arrived there she was told to teach the 1st and 2nd grades. She said, “The Sisters were gracious and lovable and gave me a good welcome. For four years I taught the 1st and 2nd grade, 3rd and 4th grade, and 4th and 5th grade. And then I taught the 5th grade for five straight years. I enjoyed teaching. I was taken out of school in 1933. The Pastor wanted Sister Eugene and me to do Parish Visitation. He had recognized various situations like invalid marriages, unbaptized children, and some who had not made their First Communion or been Confirmed, and some adults who had stopped attending Sunday Mass. For six years I labored among the parishioners doing home visitations as part of the parish staff. In 1939 I was put back into the classroom teaching 8th grade for two years and was again asked to continue with parish visitations. This I did until 1943. After 19 happy,beautiful years at Holy Name, I was missioned to social work in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. The previous year, Msgr Marcellus Wagner, who was the Director of Charities in Cincinnati had expressed an interest in arranging a program to benefit underprivileged and retarded children in the Catholic Schools of the Cincinnati area. He had contacted the Mothers General of all the Communities who were serving the schools in Cincinnati asking each Community to give one Sister whose work would be to go to the Catholic Elementary Schools and consult the Principals concerning children who presented a psychological or emotional in the school. Msgr entitled this program as School Social Service. All of the Communities contributed one Sister except for one. Sister Carlotta was the Sister of Charity missioned to do that work. As they identified children who had these psychological needs they eventually became the basis for what became the Springer Institute. It was established in 1940 as a school for exceptional children. �3 Because all of the Communities were not able to respond to Monsignor's request for Sisters, he asked for the Sisters of Charity to give him an additional Sister to do this work. And, it was at that time, in July, 1943 that Sister Marie Agnese was missioned to do this social work in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. In addition to the School Social Service work, she was also assigned to do case work in the family division of Catholic Social Services throughout the Diocese. She recruited students for the School for Exceptional Children by consulting school Principals about writing psychological histories. She also worked very closely with the Principals of the schools in terms of identifying these children, and also with the Pastors in order to get the children in the right place as far as their education was concerned. She served at Catholic Charities from August, 1943 until September of 1947 at which time she was appointed Administrator of Santa Maria Institute, and the following year as Superior of the Institute. She doesn't tell us very much about her years at Santa Maria. Msgr Wagner contacted the Community because he wanted to send her to Washington, D.C. To get a Masters Degree in Social Work, but Mother Mary Regina Russell said she could not go, but would give the opportunity to another Sister. Monsignor Wagner refused. Using the experience that she had gained at Catholic Charities, she was able to carry that forward through her years at Santa Maria. So, from 1947 until 1954 she was the Superior and Director of Santa Maria Institute. She said, “There were many problems involved at Santa Maria because money was so scarce. After seven struggling but happy years, in September of 1954 I was again missioned. This time to Saint Joseph Infant and Maternity Home where I remained until 1960.” So, for those six years, she was the Director and Superior of St. Joseph Infant and Maternity Home. She says: “At the time that I went to the Infant Home there were 60 Sisters there. Thirty of them were retired school and music teachers, and the other thirty worked in the home with duties such as nurses with the care of the newborn infants, toddlers, the milk lab, and as childcare workers for the groups of children from ages 2 to 5. The children stayed there until they were transferred to St. Joseph Orphanage. Some Sisters worked as secretaries and some worked as cooks. We sometimes had over 200 children to care for at a time. About in 1958, the five year olds were sent over to the orphanage. So, from that year on, we only had newborns to four year old children. We had 45 unwed mothers at a time when I first went to the home, and never less than 30. In June of 1954, the Maternity Hospital that served not only our own unwed mothers, but the people in the neighborhood and any mother who wished to have their baby delivered there, was discontinued. After that, our girls were delivered at Good Samaritan Hospital. Since the Sisters couldn't drive at that time, John Marie and later with Sister Veneranda drove the unwed mother ready for delivery to the hospital. �4 Parents brought their daughter to the Infant Home in the 3rd or 4th month of pregnancy, and girl remained with us until they delivered. They returned to the Infant Home after delivery and stayed from 6 weeks to 3 months. They were asked to pay $125. This included medical and hospital care as well as food and shelter at the Infant Home. Later, a social worker from Catholic Charities decided that the girls from out of town would pay $150. Sister Grace Marie and Sister Eugene Marie, administrators of Good Samaritan Hospital were most understanding, so they would take nothing for the hospital bill unless the girls were able to pay. Most of the girls gave their babies up for adoption, as not even their own brothers and sisters knew they were pregnant and thought that they were away at college or visiting relatives. We were not successful in getting tutors or teachers from the Board of Education to come to the Infant Home, so we did the best we could in teaching crafts, crocheting, etc. Before I was sent to the Infant Home, the girls worked in nurseries for 8 hours a day. Since I thought they were not there for punishment, I brought their work hours down to four. Sister Veneranda, the excellent nurse in charge of this department gave them love and understanding. The nurses in training at Good Samaritan Hospital came and stayed for several months at a time, and were taught child-care from the head nurse. They lived on the first floor vacated by the senior citizens who had lived at the Infant Home for years. Our financial problems were always a source of worry as we received very little from United Appeal. We were permitted, by them, to hold a festival every July. Other sources of income were card parties and our Christmas Appeal . Many school Sisters came in the summer to help with the children, or went on begging sprees to get prizes donated for our festival. A few unusual things happened in my years, such as finding baskets with a precious newborn infant at our front door. Our girls ages ranged from 12 to 49 and came from all parts of the United States. Several times, government officials came to the Infant Home as “white slavery” was prevalent in Kentucky. They talked to the unwed mothers who were involved. One evening, about 5.00 p.m. A 49 year old woman who lives several blocks from the Infant Home came to our front door to ask for help. As she started to talk about her problem, our supper bell rang. She begged me to go to supper, and I promised to return. It was about 6:30 p.m. And she said that she had been driving all morning and passed the Infant Home about 10 times trying to decide what to do. As she passed a bridge going into Kentucky, she felt like throwing herself in the river . She was three weeks away from delivering and asked to stay. I was able to reach Mrs. McGuire, our Social Worker from Catholic Charities and Msgr Kramer, the Director who said to keep her there and help her. The Infant Home served Protestant as well as Catholic girls, girls of every race and color. One morning, a beautiful Protestant girl about 25 years of age came from Kentucky to the Infant Home. She said that when she told her parents she was three months pregnant they told her to leave and never to return. She could not think of a place to go and felt that God directed her to us. She had no money and only the clothes she was wearing. She said �5 she couldn't help the baby, and wanted to give her child up for adoption. Six months later, when she did deliver, the baby was mongoloid and became a ward of the state of Kentucky. However, one night, when her baby became seriously ill, Sister Michael Ann, the nurse on duty baptized the baby and when the baby was better, it became a ward of Catholic Charities. My story wouldn't be complete if I failed to tell you of our good fortune when a beautiful young woman came to my office in September of 1956 to ask if we had a Guild. Nancy Ilendorf was that person (NOT SURE ABOUT THE SPELLING OF HER NAME). I called Msgr Kramer at Catholic Charities and he asked me to send her to his office. He, in turn, consulted with Archbishop Alter. He said that in the 10 years he served in Cincinnati, no one had ever come to ask to do anything for any of the social service institutions in the Diocese. They were both happy for us, but not as happy as the Sisters at the Infant Home. Nancy's family and friends started by having a card party, and our first $100 and $200 were like pure gold. Many of our families, friends and relatives were our first Guild members. Sister Ellen Joseph Walsh was fortunate in hiring Nancy who worked as secretary/receptionist for about 20 years **(someone in the audience said that Nancy was still there at the time of this presentation)** Without her work and encouragement with the Guild for the past 30 years, I doubt that it would be the success that it is today. Our Infant Home loves and appreciates what the Guild has done to help the Sisters, the children and unwed mothers as well as what they give to the Infant Home.” So, she spent 6 years doing the work there at the Infant Home, and then in 1960, she was missioned to Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton as Personnel Director. After spending a year in that Department, she was asked to open a new Social Service Department which she ran from 1961 to 1969. She was very much an advocate of the hospitals establishing social service departments. In one paper that she wrote in 1962 she writes, “These are some of the things that I think our Community should pursue in the are of social service. At present, of the seven hospitals operated by the Sisters of Charity, only 2 have Social Service Departments. At Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton, I opened one in 1961, and Good Samaritan in Cincinnati opened its Social Service Department in 1962. These were operated by lay social workers. I feel that all of our hospitals should consider the establishment of Social Service Departments. And, since the Community has sent Sisters away to study for their Masters Degrees in Education and hospital work, they should likewise educate Sisters in Social Work.” Then she tells about when back in 1943 when she became involved in social service work for the Diocese with Catholic Social Services how she was able to do for the parents of the children involved in that program. Then she goes on to say, “I'm sure that all of our schools have some needs for a social worker who would act as a liaison between the families, the pastor, the teacher and the school principal. Our apostolate could be extended to Sisters who have not necessarily reached retirement age, but retired because they were unable to do a full day's work in school. They might be able to visit nursing homes and/or serve as Sister/Visitatrix in hospitals. I believe it would be an excellent idea also for our teachers to go �6 into the urban areas which I assume are the same in all cities.” She decided in 1969, after having served as the Director of the Social Service Department in Dayton, that she wanted to go West because she had never been there. But, in the meantime, Sister Grace Marie, who was at the Good Samaritan Hospital in Cincinnati, asked her to come there to re-organize the Department of Religion, as she called it. She did this for one year. But, finally, in 1970, she went West. She went to Penrose Hospital and she served as Information Clerk from 1970-1975. She says, “After 5 ½ years at the Information Desk, Sister Myra James asked me to work in social service, which I did until 1977 when I left there. I tore a tendon in my right leg, and I was determined not to be a burden to anyone, so I asked to retire to Mount St. Joseph. I worked in the Craft Department in Mother Margaret Hall and helped to supply the Motherhouse gift shop with items to sell. Later, I learned that St. Elizabeth's Residence was a Sister of Charity project, and so, I asked to go West. I received my letter of acceptance in late September, and went to St. Elizabeth's in 1980 and stayed until 1984 In 1984 when she returned to Cincinnati, she learned that St. Joseph's Center at the Infant Home was open. So, she decided to go out there once again. Once there, she became very active doing craft work and crocheting work and she supplied things for the Center. There isn't anything in her file about this time, but I know that her family got really involved in doing some of that work and wound up building the garages. The gift shop was renamed Bonanno. She was really active out there at the Infant Home in her later years running the thrift shop and making things to raise money for the children who were living at St. Joseph Home. By that time, Saint Joseph Home had changed its ministry from maternity home to a home for the profoundly retarded . So she spent her last years very active out at there. She died September 16, 1991 at 85. THIS NEXT SECTION CONTAINS MEMORIES FROM SOME OF THE SISTERS Sister #1: When she came to Dayton, there was no personnel department. She really organized that and she included the information about the Sisters on staff. Sister #2: Some member of her family was in the liquor business and they supplied St.Elizabeth's Residence in Colorado Springs with the best wine they had ever had. Sister #3: She was my ?? grade teacher . She was very warm and loving, and I think she was like Sister Anne Hermine, if it wasn't written down you didn't have to worry about it. END OF THE TAPE �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Metz, Sister Judith, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 31 Minutes 45 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Cleveland (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Presentation on Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno, SC by Sister Judith Metz, SC October 28, 1996 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Community-based social services -- History Description An account of the resource A presentation on the life and ministerial works of Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno that was researched and presented by Congregational Archivist and Historian Sister Judith Metz. The program ends with Sisters in the audience sharing some of their remembrances of Sister Marie Agnese. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonanno, Sister Marie Agnese, SC; Metz, Sister Judith, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/28/1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Delisle, Sister Lorraine, SC (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Presentation on Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno, SC by Sister Judith Metz, SC October 28, 1996 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1906-1991 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Social Service https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/7bde5a59bf81f01299af512f2f3f2e5f.jpg 206fd96999ba91e0fe2d07a27e47a7bf https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6a9c13d9f77a8a328db2f216ddb86f6a.mp3 e0469ef54a0112ce7ac93044d278623e https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8f9cc42c6d84cc61646583a78618ef27.pdf 98a6c75b1b4772540b3fcd9d0ee1d753 PDF Text Text 1 ORAL HISTORY OF SR. HELEN BREWER INTERVIEWED BY SISTER CECILE MATUSHEK, D.C. RECORDED JULY 2019 My name is Sister Helen Brewer. I’m a Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul. I was born in Perryville, Missouri on November 24, 1934, and I was baptized the following Sunday on December 2, 1934 at the Church of the Assumption. My parents are Stella Ann Bass Brewer and Edward Louis Brewer, and I’m the fifth of seven children. Three of my siblings – Louis, Maura, and Dorothy – are deceased. The other three are Victoria, Dennis, and Albert. The four of us are able to visit regularly as they live relatively close to where I presently live in Missouri. I have 23 nieces and nephews. The Daughters of Charity and the Vincentian priests have always been a part of my life. The church of the Assumption was also known as St. Mary’s of the Barrens. My parish church was also the chapel of the Vincentian seminarians studying for the priesthood. Long before I was born, the seminarians built a grotto honoring Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception. The Vincentians established near that time the Association of the Miraculous Medal. The Daughters of Charity arrived in Perryville in 1907. Actually, the first establishment of the Vincentians was in Perryville in the St. Louis Archdiocese in 1818. So, they were there many years, and then the Daughters came in 1907 and established the St. Vincent’s School. They taught there for 95 years before it was necessary to leave because of assignments. I was taught by the Daughters of Charity the 12 years of my grade and high school education. The church, and the grotto, and the Shrine, and the Seminary, and the parish Catholic school are all a part of my education and formation. When I think about those times of my youth, my growing up, they were special times that my family was together and those were – like the Christmas Novena, and the Stations of the Cross, and the triduum before Easter, and the May procession and the Corpus Christi procession. We went as a family. And of course the Seminary picnic. You had to go to the Seminary picnic. [laughter] Of course. I love the Seminary picnic. Me too I loved to be around the Daughters of Charity, helping them around the school. Clapping the erasers was an important thing to do, and cleaning the chalkboard, and decorating the bulletin boards. Several of the girls in my class when we were about the third and fourth grade, we would race up the sidewalk to the sisters’ house as they came back from lunch, because we had to be the first one to be able to grab sister’s hand and hold her hand back to the school. Sisters Regina [Henley] and Aurea [Ayler] and Blanche [O’Malley] and Clotilda [Landry], and Helena [O’Shea] and Frances Mary [Rutt] and Frances [Proffitt] were all sisters that I remember closely. They were a special part of my life. And they made a part of the decision that I made to be a Daughter of Charity. Principally because they seemed happy, and they enjoyed what they were doing. One of my significant memories of the possibility of becoming a Daughter took place when I was completing my junior year in high school. I had asked one of the priests of the seminary if they would �2 provide a reference for me to take into St. Mary’s Hospital in St. Louis. I was applying for a summer position between my junior and senior year to serve as a nurses’ aide. He agreed, but as I was turning to leave, he called out to me and said, “Don’t let them get you.” I really stopped in my tracks because it was the first time I think that I realized that I should seriously consider what I was going to do after high school. He was talking not about the Daughters, but more about the Franciscan Sisters of Mary, who operated the hospital in St. Louis to which I was trying to be a nurses’ aide. It really was the first of my thoughts with regard to becoming a Daughter of Charity. When I remember some of my childhood memories of growing up, in addition to the church and school activities and living with six brothers and sisters, one of the major memories of my life has to do with the Second World War. I remember coming home from seeing an afternoon movie and finding my parents concerned about what they were listening to on the radio, learning that what was happening was the destruction of Pearl Harbor, and the President of United States was declaring war. The Second World War was part of my growing up. I was seven years old when the war started. Both of my older brothers served in the war in the Navy. One brother was in the Atlantic, and the other was in the Pacific. My mother used to help with the American Red Cross, and my father, as a member of the American Legion, used to assist families when their loved ones did not come home. One of my most vivid memories at the end of the war was going to church and thanking God with all of the rest of the parishioners and the townspeople. It was a very moving moment. When I think about my vocation, I have to think about it in terms of my classmates in high school. It wasn’t unusual for more than one classmate to join a religious order of priests or sisters, and in my particular class, there were three of us who joined the Daughters of Charity this year – this is one graduating class. One of our classmates joined the School Sisters of Notre Dame, and one of the boys went into the seminary toward the priesthood. I joined the Daughters of Charity, and I entered postulatum on June 16th, 1952, and I served my period of postulatum, or preparation to become a Daughter, at St. Philomena’s in St. Louis, which was a daycare center and a social service center in midtown St. Louis. After a period of I think about three or four or five months, I went to Marillac Seminary in St. Louis, and on November 25, 1952, a day after my 18th birthday, I became a member of the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul. Following that time or that year in the seminary, I was given the habit of the Daughters of Charity on the Feast of the Miraculous Medal in November 27, 1953. In that time in our history, the sisters did not just first get a college degree and then you were sent on mission. Actually, you were sent on mission while you were studying and working for your college degree whether that would be in summer school as you came back from one year to the other or evening classes and Saturday classes at colleges where you were. I want to talk a little bit about my missions and my ministries. I’ve divided my many missions and ministries into several time periods. First, what my ministry was, and then to share some of the thoughts I had at several of those ministries. The first 10-15 years of my being a Daughters of Charity, I spent as a teacher at the elementary school level. I was first assigned to Mobile, Alabama; and then I was at Salt Lake City, Utah; and then back to St. Louis. Part of coming back to St. Louis was to finish my Bachelor’s degree. �3 The second 10 to 15 years I spent as a teacher at the elementary school level and secondary level at the Labouré High School teacher and Ritter High School principal and vice principal. And there I was in San Francisco, and then Dallas, and again back into St. Louis. The third 10-15 years, 1976-1988 I served as the Director of Religious Education and pastoral ministry programs and diocesan level Director of Religious Education and the director of Renew. I’ll talk about those things later. I was located in Springfield, Missouri, and I was located in West Plains, and Willow Springs, and White Church, and Thayer in Southern Missouri. The next 10 years from the late 80s through 1998 were a different kind of ministry. It was a 10 year period. It felt like a longer period than that. I was a docent in Emmitsburg, and then I served as a Director of Religious Education in a parish in St. Charles, Missouri. The next thing that I did in that same period of time was I was assigned to be vice president of Mission Integration at St. Joseph’s Hospital in Ft. Worth, and then, following that, I served in the mission leadership position at our National Health System in St. Louis and then a ministry councilor for the Daughters of Charity from 1995-98 here in St. Louis. That takes care probably of about the first 40 years of my ministry from a teacher to a principal to a director to a leadership position. When you were on the Council, was that the days when we were health, ministry, and social work [positions]? Mm-hmm. And so you were the health...? No, no, no, I was education. Education on the Council! Ok. Actually, when I looked at it, it looked like—It just says “Ministry.” In my head... but it was in education. I wasn’t in the healthcare. I don’t know if that’s how we were. That’s what I was trying to remember myself. At St. Joseph’s, what was interesting was that was not one of our hospitals to begin with I recall. It was the St... I think it they were St. Joseph’s Sisters, because you and I would get together... Yeah, St. Joseph’s in... Ft. Worth. In Ft. Worth was a hospital of the Sisters of Incarnate Word of San Antonio. We purchased it from them. They had had it for almost 100 years, and then they were not able to continue it. So those were challenges I guess? It was a challenging time for sure. I’d like to just take a couple of experiences to share some thoughts that I had. One of them was my first mission in Mobile, Alabama. It was a period of the time in which schools and parishes and everything at �4 life was to be integrated. It was a period of integration in the 1950s. Several of my experiences—One had to do with the procession that was held annually in the Diocese of Mobile at Corpus Christi time in which the celebration was to take the Blessed Sacrament through the city of Mobile and bring it to the center of downtown Mobile. In that particular year, the schools were to be lined up according to the year in which they were founded. In that particular year, a school with black boys and girls, with black children, was placed in front of St. Vincent’s School of Mobile, the Daughters’ school. My experience was that at one point, as the procession was starting, when the families found out that the black children were walking in front of the white children, the parents came and removed their children from the procession. Took them out. It was a shocking thought for—I was twenty-one years old. It’s shocking still isn’t it. Right, shocking still. I also remember times when I would see women who I knew were waitresses or housekeepers walking instead of riding the bus, and also to know that, in the church, in St. Vincent’s church, the people who were black sat in the last pews, and there was a rope that was hooked to the wall and the pew, which was an indicator that if you were not white, that you should not go beyond that rope in church in church in St. Vincent’s Church in Mobile, Alabama. Was that the time of the bus boycott as well and the boycott as well of the bank industry? Yes, it was the time of the bus boycott as well. That’s why all of those people were walking toward their work because they didn’t... They were not going to ride those busses at that point. When I was at San Francisco at the girls’ high school... This was the period of time in history when Haight-Ashbury was the most dominant part of what was happening in the drug scene, and we would have some of our high school girls disappear in the maze of the Haight-Ashbury district. Cathedral High School was located not too far from the Haight-Ashbury district. One of the most memorable moments for me was when one of the high school girls in class just burst out in tears and she said “Why do they have to keep killing our leaders?” She was referring to Dr. Martin Luther King and the Kennedy assassination as well. You meant Bobby? Bobby. Yeah. All of that was occurring in similar time when I was missioned in the San Francisco Cathedral High School for Girls. Another one of the experiences that I wanted to share was when I was in Springfield, Missouri working with the diocesan religious education programs as well as working with the Renew program. This was a time following the Second Vatican Council in which the expansion of the opportunity for people to participate more actively in the life of the Church was taking place. One of the memories has to do with the enthusiasm that occurred surrounding the opportunity when families could more actively participate in activities of the church but also in the development of their own spirituality through the participation of Renew. Renew was the name that was given to a small group family-centered discussion, school centered and family-centered opportunities to learn more about sacred scripture, learn more about their faith. And that was part of the Second Vatican Council’s expansion of activities for the Church to be more fully among the people And that was very new for the Church at that time wasn’t it? �5 It was. You were there. Right. In the midst of it. Right in the middle of it. Trying to spread that message of the active participation of people in the Church. When I was in Austin, Texas-- Mobile; San Francisco; Springfield, Missouri; Austin, Texas—I arrived in Austin at the time that the federal government was initiating the Children’s Health Insurance Program [CHIP]. I got into it right at the very beginning because, when I first went to Austin I was serving as an advocate and a person lobbying for issues surrounding the state capital, the issues in the state of Texas. Part of that energy that I had at the time was my participation in the development and the acceptance of the CHIP program for the state of Texas and also distinguish the eligibility programs of whether the child was eligible for Medicaid or whether they were eligible for the CHIP program. So I did some lobbying, and I actively engaged with some of our Senators and Representatives at the time. It was a great experience. Those were big days for that. Yes they were. They were the big days. I spent probably the last 20 years—a little less than 20 years of my ministry, I was in Austin, Texas. During that time, the expansion of health care services in the Central Texas area, and I was really blessed to be a part of that expansion, part of that growth in Central Texas. I served as a member of the board, and also as chair of the board for some time. It was a big lesson for me. Was that the time that we took over the city hospital in Austin, when we acquired that as well? Which was mammoth. Yes, it was. The City/County Hospital – Brackenridge Hospital – was a major, wonderful tradition, but unable to sustain the cost of maintaining the City/County hospital. So Ascension and Seton Hospital-Ascension took over and developed a relationship with the City/County hospital. It was very very difficult because it entailed the birth and... All of the above. All of the above areas abortion and birth control that would have been possible had it been a public hospital, but now it was coming under a Catholic hospital system. It had to do with the directives for health care... The big directives. We were dealing with Rome, and we were dealing with the Catholic Dioceses of the United States. So yes, Brackenridge was a big party. And Bishop [John E.] McCarthy was so good. Yes, he was. Bishop McCarthy just recently died, and he was a great help too. In order to serve the poor. And it’s still going on I believe. �6 Yes, it is. With a new one, a whole new hospital. Yes, it is. Children’s. Yes it is. That’s great. When I look back... When I was preparing for this, I was 67 years of service as a Daughter of Charity, and I look back at it, and it’s been an honor, it’s been a privilege, and I see it with gratitude and with thanksgiving for having had numerous opportunities to serve. Actually, I forgot a couple. As I concluded my ministry in Austin, I also had the opportunity to serve in Gould, Arkansas; and also in El Paso, Texas; and in Nashville, Tennessee, either as a board chair of the health ministries there or as a committee member in St. Thomas Health in Nashville. And I also had two other areas, including ministries, were in Nashville and in Perryville. Going back to Perryville, I served on the board of the Association of the Miraculous Medal for a period of time. That was full circle from your very beginning? Yes, it was full circle from the very beginning. I look back at my life and I see special opportunities over and over again of many times when I was encouraged to grow both spiritually, physically, and emotionally. I was encouraged to develop those qualities that would bring me closer to the people and closer to God, and when I was looking at the material and answering the questions and working through those, I came to the realization that I had not said about my sister companions, the sisters that I lived with. When I looked back... There’s a bunch of them. I lived in community all of those—My sisters in community, I wouldn’t have been able to do what I did if I didn’t live in community with the companions—There’s a song “Companions on my Journey,”and definitely I recall those many missions that I had, included in those mission is my relationship with all the sisters. So, I lived with them, I worked with them, I ministered with them, I agreed with them, I disagreed with them, I grew beside them, and I am grateful for all those who were part of my life. Sister Helen, you’ve shared a lot about how you were really present for a lot of the big major moments both in our country with the Civil Rights and with the assassinations and then also with the church with the Vatican Council. I wondered if you’d take a couple minutes if you would to reflect on life now, here, where our biggest thing is reading the paper or watching the news. How do you feel about living here [The Sarah Community in Bridgeton, MO]? It’s not all Daughters. We live with other communities. We live with laypeople. You’re experiences would lead you this direction I would think, but, do you have any thoughts on the life now as your ministry here? First of all, I’m very happy to be here. Yes, me too. I’m very happy to be living here. I find it very welcoming place. I often tell people that it feels very much at home. I feel good about being here. People are not nosy. They’re very helpful if you need help, but they’re not nosy. So you have the opportunity to be in your apartment and be in the chapel �7 and have the opportunity for Mass. It’s a great blessing. It’s a great blessing. I’m trying to learn how to role. I’m trying to learn how it is that this is my life now. However long God gives me, for the rest of my life, the opportunity to not have such a rigid schedule or so many opportunities that I can’t just sit back and say, “Well, maybe I can do that tomorrow. Or maybe I can do that the next day.” I’m very grateful to be here. You talk about there are widows and widowers, there are couples, there are sisters of various congregations. All of us live in a sense in community, but at the same time, there’s a privacy and there’s a community that comes together very easily. Very easily. I really do love it here. Me too. It’s great. And we have time for prayer. Oh, yes. We were so busy in our apostolic life. Not that we’re not apostolic. Yes, very much. Well thank you so much. You’re welcome. That was wonderful. I learned a lot from you myself. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Matushek, Sister Cecile, D.C. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brewer, Sister Helen, D.C. Location The location of the interview St. Louis, MO Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:31:40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brewer, Sr. Helen, D.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Brewer, Sr. Helen, D.C.; Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul; School integration; Children's Health Insurance Program (U.S.) Description An account of the resource Sister Helen Brewer discusses her education by the Daughters of Charity, her decision to join the community, her family life during World War II, desegregation of schools in the South, teaching in San Francisco in the late 1960s, and the challenges of expanding health service at Seton Medical Center in Austin, TX Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brewer, Sr. Helen, D.C.; Matushek, Sr. Cecile, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity Archives, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Scott (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication.ÿ Contact archvies staff for appropriate forms and contact information During the lifetime of the interviewer and interviewee, permission must be secured from the individuals directly. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3; Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Brewer, Sister Helen Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1934-2019 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Education Healthcare https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/ef1f8511fcd9f1fc0ffdbafc7331b2f0.jpg d270b3a1f110982d1f7f2a0a504de665 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b8142033602509a72faeea27d6d7413e.mp3 a07480c6e6d18e3fcc8a57ba8608e408 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/674962ba888ec9bedc03547ed0bf767c.pdf 0fad7d38ca434172caa7933a2a1c5fc0 PDF Text Text Sisters  of  Charity  -­‐  Halifax   Oral  history  interview  of  Sister  Caroleen  Marie  Browne   Interviewed  by  Sister  Theresa  Corcoran  at  Mount  Saint  Vincent,  Wellesley  Hills,   Massachusetts  on  November  28  2005.   Transcribed  by  Mary  Flynn,  Congregational  Archivist  in  2020.       Note:  Sister  Caroleen  Marie  was  supplied  a  questionnaire  to  prepare  for  the  oral   history.  When  she  reads  a  question  out  loud,  it’s  indicated  by  quotation  marks.   Any  additions  in  brackets  are  added  by  the  transcriber  for  context.       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    0:01       -­‐conversation  between  Sister  Caroleen  Marie  Brown,  and  Sister  Teresa  Corcoran   taped  at  Mount  Saint  Vincent,  Wellesley  Hills,  November  3,  2005.       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    0:08       I  won't  forget  it's  there.  I'll  turn  my  head  that  way.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    0:10       Okay.       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    0:12       This  is  Sister  Caroleen  Browne.  I  entered  the  community  in  1941,  was  professed  in   1943  and  have  spent  43  years  in  teaching.  All  aspects  of  all  grades  from  5  to  12.   No,  from  5  to  12  plus.       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    0:51       Which  ones  did  you  like  best?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    0:54       I  liked  Seton  Hall  [Patchogue,  New  York]  best.  The  spirit  there  was...  well  it  kept  us   going.  And  it  was  not  just  the  spirit  of  the  teachers,  it  was  the  spirit  of  the   youngsters,  too.  "What  was  the  importance  of  your  mission  ministry  for  you?"   Well,  it  brought  some  of  those  students  closer  to  God,  help  them  be  a  little  bit   more  like  good  human  beings.  That  would  be  the  kind  of  thing  that  I  would  be   looking  for.  I  would  give  you  a  ministry,  stimulate  your  growth.  Physical  growth,   eating.  [both  Sisters  laugh].   �   Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    1:56       Some  places  fed  better  than  others,  right?       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    1:59       Yes.  In  order  to  keep  teaching  well,  I  felt  I  had  to  read  more  and  that  did  stimulate   my  growth.  "What  has  been  the  impact  of  personal  events  on  your  life?"       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    2:32       Personal  events  could  be  almost  anything.  Family  events,  community  events.   Maybe  there  aren't  any  that  you  want  to  mention.  What  about  the  local  or   national  or  world  events?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    2:48       Well,  personal  events,  during  the  1980s  almost  everyone  in  my  family  died  and  I   had  to  take  care  of  all  the  post-­‐death  problems.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    3:08       Almost  all  these  people,  your  brother?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    3:10       My  brother,  my  two  aunts,  an  uncle,  cousin.  People  who-­‐  we  were  close,  my  aunt,   especially.  In  the  impact  of  Church  events,  well,  I  think  Vatican  II  was  a  very   important  point  in  my  life  as  well  as  in  the  life  of  the  church.  And  I  am  very   distressed  to  find  that  there  are  some  people  nowadays  who  are  trying  to   downplay  Vatican  II,  because,  to  me,  it  was,  it  was  the  Holy  Spirit  speaking  to  John   XXIII.  "Has  your  image  of  God  changed  over  the  years?"  Well  yes.  Not  that  I  had   much  of  an  image  of  him.  But  it  has  changed.  I  won't  go  into  the  detail.  [both   laugh]     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    4:21       The  details.  Okay.       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    4:24       "What  have  been  your  greatest  disappointments?"         �Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    4:31       You  may  not  have  many.     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    4:33       No,  I  don't  think  I  had  too  many  disappointments,  really.       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    4:36       -­‐both  things  happened,  were  there  different  ways  instead  of  coping  with  them?       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    4:42       Oh  yes,  well  during  the,  during  the  '80s,  1980s  I  just  kept  going  along.  Moving   along.  That's  the  way-­‐     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    4:54       That's  the  way  you've  always-­‐     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    4:56       Yes.  "How  have  certain  restrictions  affected  you?"       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    5:08       I  think  by  that  we  mean  the  restrictions  we  used  to  have  in  the  community.  Did   they  affect  you  very  much?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    5:19       Not  terribly  much.  I  didn't...  I  minded  them.  But  I  think  we  all  minded  them  to   certain  extent.  "Are  there  any  other  points  or  comments  you  wish  to  make?"  No,   except  that  I  had  a  very  happy  life.  A  very  contented  life.  And  I've  made  a  lot  of   good  friends  and  I  think  that's  one  of  the  great  things  about  religious  life.  We  do   make  friends  and  good  ones.  And  we  shall-­‐  we  shall  continue.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    6:15       What  about  when  you  moved  from  let's  say  New  York  to  Halifax  and  back?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    6:22       -­‐when  I  moved  to  Halifax?  That  wasn't  too  bad  a  move  at  all.  That  wasn't  too   difficult.  When  I  moved  back  here,  well  that's  a  little  more  difficult  because  this  is   more  of  an...  old  kind  of,  that  always  goes.  An  old  kind  of  structured  living.     �   Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    7:04       More  structured?       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    7:04       Yes.  The  little  green  thing?  I  should-­‐  [noises  in  the  background  as  Sister  Theresa   moves  the  recorder]       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    7:25       Okay.  I'll  put  that  on  top  of  the  table.     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    7:33       [laughs]  I'm  sorry.  Hope  it  doesn't  spoil  anything.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    7:37       The...  you  mentioned  the  impact  of  church  events  in  Vatican  II.  What  about  the   position  of  women,  did  that  ever  enter  into  your-­‐     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    7:52       Oh  yes,  that  that  bothers  me  very  much.  And  the  fact  that,  I  heard  on  EWTN  the   other  day  a  big  long  talk  about-­‐  by  two  priests  taking  turns  about  how  men  are   being  left  out  because  our  Lord  is  a  feminine-­‐  attitude  of  our  Lord  are  being   emphasized.  But  I  say,  who  emphasizes  that?  Women,  who  are  they?  I  think  they   do.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    8:33       What  do  they  mean  by  that,  I  wonder?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    8:35       They..  that  kindness  and  relationships  are  so  important,  are  being  made   important  and  they,  I  guess  they  find  them  too  feminine.  I  was  ready  to  throw   something  at  them.  [both  laugh]  I  mean,  after  all,  who  has  done  the  greater  part   of  the  work  in  the  church  for  years  and  years  and  years?  It  hasn't  been  the  men.   And  nobody  should  be-­‐  no,  no  women  are  trying  to  push  a  feminine  Christ  on   them.  They  can  make  Christ  whom  they  please.  That  has-­‐  that  bothered  me  a  little   bit.     �   Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    9:36       Your  work  didn't  bring  you  into  situations  where  you  would  have  found  that   frustrating  or  would  it  have?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    9:42       No.  Any,  any  work  I  did,  mostly,  the  most  contact  I  had  with  priests  was  through   First  Communion  classes  and  things  like  that  and  we  went  out  to  the,  to  the...  the   church.  Some  of  the  priests  were  very  nice  to  us  and  some  of  them  who  kind  of   brushed  us  off.  But...  when  we  were-­‐  from  Seton  Hall,  there  was  a  group  of  us   that  went.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    10:26       Oh  right,  yeah.     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    10:27       And  taught  Sunday  school  or  Tuesday  school  or  whatever  school  it  would  be.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    10:41       So  that  was  probably  the  only  kind  of  parish  work  that  you  really  did?       S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    10:45       Yes.  I  never  did  anything  more  than  that.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    10:58       So  as  a  young  person  who  were  some  of  the  people  that  you  would  have  some...   look  up  to?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    11:03       Looked  up  to?  Well,  Miriam  Constance,  Frances  de  Chantal.  Now,  Frances  de   Chantal  had  a...  very,  she  had  a  lot  of  people  who  didn't  like  her  at  all  because  she   was  very  exact.  And  she  was,  but  we  were  in  St.  Peter's  at  the  time,  we  had  just   come  out  of  the  novitiate  and  some  of  the  older  Sisters  are  using  us  -­‐  were  using   us  to  do  their  work.  They  were  very  successful  for  quite  a  long  time  before,  before   somebody,  Sister  Frances  de  Chantal  found  out  and  then  the  thing  was,  there  was   a  list  on  the  bulletin  board  of  who  was  to  go  to  take  care  of  confessions  every   Saturday  afternoon.  They  had  confessions,  one  Saturday  for  the  parochial  school   �boys,  one  for  the  parochial  school  girls,  one  for  the  public  school  boys,  one  for  the   public  school  girls.  And  we  were  assigned.  Everybody  in  the  house  was  on  the  list.   Well  one  Saturday,  one  Sunday,  Sister  Frances  de  Chantal  called  me  and  said,   "where  were  you  yesterday  afternoon?"  I  said,  "I  was  at  church,  confession."  And   she  said,  "but  it's  not  your  turn."  I  said,  "No,  but  we're-­‐  most,  most  Saturdays  they   asked  Margaret  McGaughey  and  myself  to  go  over  because  they,  they're  going   home  to  visit  their  parents."  [laughs]  Yeah,  so  she  said,  "you  don't  have  to  go   anymore.  Anymore  when  they  ask  you,  you  just  say  no."  And  heard  that  she  got  a   hold  of  all  of  them,  without  us  knowing  it,  you  know.  Because  nobody  ever  asked   us  again.  [both  Sisters  laugh]  I  can  see  how  they  didn't  like  her  because-­‐  but  she   was  good,  she  was  good  to  us,  she  was  trying  to  be  fair  to  us.  Peter  Claver,  I   admired  her  very  much.       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    11:03       Were  you  teaching  with  her  or  was  she  principal?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    13:41       No,  she  wasn't  principal.  I  was  teaching  with  her.  And,  she...  she  would  always   say,  "every  youngster  had  good  in  him.  You  have  to  look  for  the  good."     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    14:10       Sometimes  you'd  look  out  at-­‐     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    14:12       Yes,  but  she,  she  always  looked  for  the  good  in  every  single  youngster  she  taught.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    14:18       Now  was  this  at  Patchogue?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    14:20       Seton  Hall,  yes.  And  she  always  looked  really  good  and  she  always  found  it  and   they  would  do  anything  under  the  sun  for  her  because  they  thought,  they  trusted   her  entirely.  Completely.  So  I  learned  a  lot  from  her,  from  being  with  her.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    14:58       -­‐just  as  a  colleague,  really.     �S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    14:59        Yes.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    15:09       Are  there  any  people  that  you  still  keep  in  contact  with  in  New  York  or  in  Halifax?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    15:16       Well,  I  keep  writing  back  to  Walsh  House  [Halifax,  Nova  Scotia].    I  admire   Margaret  very  much.  Margaret  Molloy.  And...     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    15:41       Of  course  a  lot  of  those  people  that  we  knew  in  those  days  have  gone  too.     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    15:44       Yeah.  That's  true.  The  ones  who,  in  the,  had  in  the  earlier  days,  they're  not,   they're  not  around  anymore.       Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    16:18       Do  you  have  any  other  comments  you  want  like  to  make?     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    16:18       I'm  grateful  for  everything  that  was,  that's  ever  been  done  for  me.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    16:24       Of  course  you've  done  a  lot  of  things  yourself  for  people.     S.  Caroleen  Marie  Browne    16:26       I  try  to  do  something.  [both  laugh]  I  thank  you  for  all  you  did.     Sister  Theresa  Corcoran    16:40       I  didn't  do  too  much,  you  were  doing  more  for  me.       � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Halifax Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Browne, Sister Caroleen Marie, SC, Interview Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Halifax; Teaching; Browne, Sister Caroleen Marie, SC Description An account of the resource Sister Caroleen Marie Browne (1923-2007) describes her life as a Sister of Charity - Halifax, including her entrance to the community in 1941, her 43 years missioned as a teacher of grades 5 to 12, family, and Sisters she admired. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Browne, Sister Caroleen Marie, SC; Corcoran, Sister Theresa, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity - Halifax Congregational Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/28/2005 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flynn, Mary (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity – Halifax Congregational Archivist. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:17:03 Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SCHalifax_Browne Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1941-2005 Education Sisters of Charity of Halifax https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/53676e44aeecfbeee37f74c70531c4e7.jpg df4397f8e24e73d88d3e3e8919b01cca https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b4da064b12e781bbf6c244db4d6658ea.pdf 5c78eb0d3f7b244442ed4360be72d24d PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC Sister Louis Marie Bryan, SC January 26, 1998 Sister Noreen Neary, SC October 28, 2020 Sister Mary Ellen: Sister Louis, perhaps we could talk about the educational preparation that the sisters who volunteered to serve in the Virgin Islands received. Sister Louis Marie: That is not exactly an easy question for me to answer. [I enrolled in] Saints Peter and Paul School [in Saint Thomas, Virgin Islands] in 1933 and my first encounter with the sisters was to have them prepare me for first communion with Sister Gertrude Agnes [Goode]. I was in the public schools, first and second grades. And in third grade, I went to Sts. Peter and Paul School and was educated by the Sisters of Charity from third grade to eighth grade. My experience with the sisters was that they were excellent teachers. They were excellently prepared to give me what was truly a grammar school education, not just elementary. And I know that because the reading and writing skills, particularly that they taught me, have lasted me my entire life. I remember learning how to diagram sentences and to really understand how to read and how to write, to comprehend whatever you read and to write, perfect grammar. We graduated in eighth grade and we had only from first to eighth grade in those days. And when I left Catholic school, we went to the one public high school in the Virgin Islands…in St. Thomas, the Charlotte Amalie High School. And those of us who had come up from Sts. Peter and Paul were head and shoulders above the majority of the class. That's not to say the others weren't well educated, but we seemed to have been a touch above the public school. And we had excellent teachers in the public high school, excellent. So that when we went on from there to the college, we were very well prepared. But as everyone knows, the preparation has to begin in elementary school and grammar school. So, to answer your question, my guess would be based on my experience that they were eminently well prepared. Sister Mary Ellen: I see. Then, when did you leave the Virgin Islands? Was it immediately after high school? Sister Louis Marie: You mean for entrance into the community? Or what? Sister Mary Ellen: Even before entrance… Sister Louis Marie: OK, I left the Virgin Islands in 1945. And graduated from high school in June 1945 and left the islands in August 1945. 1 �Sister Mary Ellen: I see. And then you came to the United States…I mean to study… Sister Louis Marie: I began my undergraduate education at New York University, the School of Education in Washington Square, NY, but that I had to terminate the beginning of the second semester freshman year because I had a serious eye problem which flared up and I had to withdraw from school for half a year. In September 1946 I transferred to the undergraduate college of liberal arts at Howard University in Washington, DC and studied there with a major in sociology and a minor in economics, then graduated cum laude in 1949 with an AB in Liberal Arts, Sociology. Sister Mary Ellen: OK, and then I know you entered the congregation in the 1950s, so there's a gap… Sister Louis Marie: There is… Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So, were you out working…at that time? Or did you do more studying? Did you… Sister Louis Marie: Well, immediately on graduation from Howard University College of Liberal Arts, I returned to the Virgin Islands and worked as a child welfare worker in the Department of Social Welfare. Then I realized that I wanted to do social work, but I didn't have nearly the educational preparation to do that. I had been assigned as a child welfare worker to work with dependent or neglected or delinquent children…a mixed bag. And I loved the children, but I felt so inadequate to their needs. At the same time, the government of the Virgin Islands was just getting the extension of the public assistance program to the islands and had just established a Division of Child Welfare and they would pay for a master's degree in social work on the condition that the applicant would work a year for each thousand dollars they paid. Well, it was right down my alley because l had wanted to work at home. So I went to what was then The New York School of Social Work. It is now the Columbia University School of Social Work and it was a wonderful experience. The school was located in the Carnegie mansion at 91st Street and Fifth Avenue. Yes, it was ideal for studying. So, I thoroughly enjoyed that master's level program and, for my master's thesis, I chose to write a history of the development of public welfare in the Virgin Islands because we had been owned by Denmark for two hundred and fifty years and our... although we were an American territory and we had the American public welfare system, the overtones, the attitudes and even some of the held-over programs reflected the Scandinavian approach to social welfare. So that thesis was a joy to do. A very useful piece of work. So then, I went home on completion of that and got my job back, first in child welfare, but 2 �then pretty soon I was asked to be a Supervisor of Public Assistance. So, I was in social work on the islands and enjoying it very much when low and behold in 1955, January 3rd, the newspaper carried an announcement that the United States had extended its Fulbright Scholarship program to the Virgin Islands and people could apply. I had a master's degree. I was free and single, uncommitted and I wanted to go to Europe. So, I applied for a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Denmark to study the Scandinavian social welfare system and programs and to see what tie-ins there were related to the islands and our systems. I was awarded a Fulbright and left for a year's study in Denmark and that was exciting. It was an independent study program. I went with other Fulbright scholars who were in different fields and we all, for the first month, studied Danish language, Danish history, Danish culture and had field trips to enhance that. I lived in a student residence with a Danish speaking student, so the language experience was real for me. I was able to use it and use it fluently. And then I planned my study with the help of professional social workers over there to research the literature and to visit different program sites. So that as I read about care for the elderly, for instance, I could go to a facility that cared for the elderly and see how it was carried out. It was a fascinating experience. So I did that piece of research then after the study period ended, I toured Europe with some other students for two months or so. Then I got home and went back to Social Welfare Department and the very next year, 1957, I petitioned to enter the Sisters of Charity and was accepted. That brings me into entrance and the studying didn't stop there. Sister Mary Ellen: I know you had some very rich experiences after you had entered the Sisters of Charity where you could use a lot of this educational background you already had… Sister Louis Marie: So I entered [the Congregation] with a master's degree in social work and my first assignment was to teach in the Juniorate…which is a preparatory school for girls…and that was a little bit funny. I had to teach intermediate algebra and solid geometry because my high school transcript had showed good marks in math. But I wasn't a math major, so that was a bit of a challenge. And I did my best with a lot of help from Sister Barbara Garland who was a novice. But the algebra course was for elective students and they were very bright. I think they knew more about it than I, but we managed. After my year of novitiate I was asked to teach in the sociology department [of the College of Saint Elizabeth] and that was much more in line with what I felt able to do competently. I taught student nurses and I taught the junior professed sisters’ Saturday classes. After I made final vows, my first mission was to St. Mary's Hospital [in Passaic, NJ] to work in the Child Center. But I was out of teaching and back in natural social work. But this time it was clinical social work. And my clinical preparation had not been much because on the master’s level I was being prepared for child welfare work for the broader scope, rather than narrow clinical. There were two very fine clinics, one for child guidance, emotionally 3 �disturbed children and work with their parents as well, and the other was for retarded persons in the Bergen and Passaic County areas, diagnostic service and some counseling. Both clinics were staffed with top-notch specialists and the diagnostic work over at the retarded children's clinic was hooked right into St. Mary's Hospital so you could get a full complement of medical and clinical work along with psychological and social study. That was a most enriching experience. But I was a sort of the junior member on the team, if you will. The only religious…maybe the only Catholic even. Certainly the only Black woman…and not, as I said, trained for psychiatric social work. But then I did a lot of course work at a mental health center in New York and that was very, very helpful. So I had a rich, I'd say almost about twelve years actual training and preparation and experience in clinical work. And at the center, we worked as a team with a child psychiatrist, clinical psychologist and psychiatric social worker, so it was one of the richest experiences I could have dreamed of. Well, St. Mary's decided that we would develop an inpatient unit, so the child center would be closed in favor of inpatient and that's where I felt that, look, if I'm going to be part of this, I need to be up and running with everybody else. So I asked and received permission from the Congregation to work towards a doctor of social welfare. I applied to Smith College School of Social Work because they had a very good clinical program and my application was accepted, but then I was invited up for a personal interview and that did not go well at all. When I went up, the atmosphere was very, very cool. I didn't feel welcome at all. And the people who interviewed me, the first woman who interviewed me made it quite clear that if I were going to attend there as a student in the doctoral program, I would have to wear secular clothes. Well, that didn't sit well with me at all. I, for me, wearing the habit of Sister of Charity was important. The community wasn't requiring me to wear a habit. We were free to wear what we chose. And it was my choice to wear a habit and veil – deliberately so because I had felt from my clinical practice at St. Mary's Child Center that the habit made a difference with people with emotional problems. For some persons, the habit reassured them. They felt they knew what a nun was and that I could be trusted with their innermost secrets and pains and worries and so on. For other people, the habit was a…not a deterrent, but a stimulus. They would be angry and they would be…you know, and the anger would come forth because of whatever feelings they had about religion or habits or nuns or whatever…things as being Black, some people would react to that. Anyway, I was not about to change my choice to suit Smith. And furthermore, I wasn't sure they wanted me because they were kind of derogatory and, you know, they said if you need a wardrobe, we could give you one… Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, dear… Sister Louis Marie: Yes, so I figured, well, this I don't need. So I came back and decided I was not going to Smith because I wanted to wear my habit and so I reapplied to Columbia, my alma mater. And although it was late in the day, Columbia was into taking black students in their doctoral program because Columbia was sitting on the edge of Harlem and making a big push to include more minorities in their student body. So, I got in with no trouble. The only thing 4 �was, Columbia's program was not "clinical." I could make it in case work, but it was not as highly clinical. But it was a good program. But more important was God's handling this because when I went to Columbia, I decided to live at the International House where I had lived as a secular on the master's level and where I had loved the experience. So, I went to International House, habit and all, and found there a delightful sister, a Sister of Saint Ann, a native of India. Anyway, she was bright as anything. She already had a Ph.D. in economics, but to teach in India, she needed a Ph.D. or some education courses, so she was going to teach in Pelham…Sister Mary Benjamin was her name. She was in habit, too. And we got to be great friends and we got to be accepted at “I House” as two little nuns… “I House,” at the same time, had changed in composition from when I'd been there in the early 1950s…There were many more Africans and Asians and…it always was international…the preponderance in earlier years had been European. So now there are African Americans and everything. So, of course, we had a Black caucus going. We made a contribution there. But at school, at Columbia, the campus now was moved up from out of the Carnegie mansion and on to the Morningside Heights campus. And they had, on the master's level, a very active Black caucus, a Black students’ organization and the few Blacks of us who were on a doctoral level met with them because they needed lots of help. Many of them had been admitted without the kind of solid preparation you need…particularly communication skills, so we would tutor them and make weekend retreats with them. I, then, got an orientation that I had not had when I came to the Sisters of Charity in the 1950s. I was on this campus [the Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth] when you saw very few blacks. Very few…even in service positions. And there was one other Black sister, Lorena Tyson. And then when I went to St. Mary's Hospital…the clients who were from around there were very few Blacks. So I had not been attuned to the Black situation really. But when I went to “I House” and back to Columbia and met the Blacks there…it was the education I needed much more than a clinical education to put me in touch with the world that was. And…it was the late 1960s…and right around that time, the National Black Catholic Clergy Caucus got organized in April '68 and the National Black Catholics Conference in August '68. So, by that time, I was finding out who I am as a Black religious woman and it was a marvelous gift from God. I mean, how the pieces fit together…unbelievable. So with Afro studies, the course work was good, but the living experience was infinitely more important. And I finished the course work in two years and had a dissertation to do and I was really tired of being a student then. And my job at St. Mary's…I left because I thought I was going to have go into the inpatient psychiatric work. My job was no longer existent. And one time I visited Convent Station and [Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney, president of the College of Saint Elizabeth] said, "I wish you were free." I said, "Why?" She said, "Because we need somebody for the Upward Bound program." And I said, "I am free." So I came back to Convent as a Director of the Upward Bound program, succeeding Sister Lucille Anne [Egan] and I was beautifully prepared for it. And it was a thrilling and exciting experience and the program was one of the finest in the region. I mean, we were rated as the third best for many years. And it faced many challenges. We ran an all-girls program, working with "disadvantaged" minority students, mostly Black from inner-city Newark. And 5 �then, after a few years, the government decided that the programs had to be co-ed. We either would run a co-ed program of get out of the [program]. So, I prayed a lot…and was consulted and the President of the College and government agreed we could do co­ed program. So I prayed mightily. The program would be co-ed, but the college would remain single sex. So we ran it and we ran it successfully. The women in Santa Rita Hall and the men at [indecipherable]. And it got to be a great program. We lost the funding for it…I do not know why, except that many people in the field thought well, with cycle sight of our ten years that it was time for somebody else... I moved from Upward Bound to the Educational Opportunity Fund directorship then and the person who succeeded me at Upward Bound failed to get funding for the program. So, I moved to the EOF briefly... maybe about a year…and then was invited to go home to the Virgin Islands. Anyway, for my doctoral dissertation then, since I had finished the course work and had worked with Upward Bound, I got permission to do a study on what impact the Upward Bound program had on students who were coming from inner-cities north at the time of Black liberation. The study was to explore which influence would exert more influence on young people. The Black Liberation Movement – they were in the thick of it…in Newark…shattering bombs and everything during the Black Revolution – or Upward Bound. Upward Bound was an invitation to them to join the establishment, you know, to become part of the mainstream. And Black Liberation was not going that route. So, it was exciting to work with my own measuring instrument and everything. I got to study population, not just from our program, but from Princeton, Rutgers and our college segment which had been initially for women. Princeton had been initially all men. Rutgers was always co-ed, so it was good. Anyway, the study showed that more people responded to the establishment poll than the other poll. Anyhow, it was a good study. And students in the social work program in the islands have used both the master's thesis and the doctoral dissertation as research documents for some of their studies. So that's gratifying. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, of course it is. Sister Louis Marie: Anyway, I got an invitation to go home and I was given permission to accept it. And my first invitation was to serve as a member of the parish team at Saints Peter and Paul. And I said to the pastor, a native of the Virgin Islands, "I haven't lived in a parish for the last twenty years. I don't even know what…" He said, "You don't have to know." He said, "You'd be on my team and you'll just do it." The Congregation asked for something in writing, so he sent a list of ten things. He said, "You can do any, all or none of these." And so I went home and was winging it. And that pastor got changed the next spring. Sister Mary Ellen: What were some of the things you had to do... that he had on that list to do? Sister Louis Marie: Develop a community in the western end of the island. People who lived out west were coming up to the cathedral and he thought maybe it was time to develop a new parish down there…develop some kind of community. So we used to have weekend Masses 6 �and [unintelligible], but the people really did not want that. They lived down there but they worked in town and they wanted to be part of the cathedral. Some of the other things that I did was a prison ministry. Got a group of people who wanted to go to a jail and we went every week and that, too, was a good experience. We would sing and preach the scriptures…pray with them and gosh, what are some of the other things we did? Eucharistic minister, the usual pastoral things. But it didn't go too well because it was not really a team. The pastor was a very strong man and some people…you have to be a team…you have to have a team personality. I don't think he was a team person. So I wasn't integrated into any team. But the bishop of the diocese, [Bishop Edward John Harper of the Diocese of Saint Thomas], had always been addressing having me in a diocese and he had written to the Congregation years before to ask them to let me come, since I was a social worker and they had told him no. So, when I got there and I wasn't too busy after the pastor was transferred, the bishop asked me would I serve as a family life director. He had no family life program. I said, "Sure." And through the bishop, I learned what natural family planning was. He said to me there's a conference on the [Billings Ovulation Method]. I didn't even know what the man was talking about. And would you go? I said, "Sure." So I went to New York and I ran into [Sister Mary Rosalie Curran, SC] who was teaching NFP (Natural Family Planning). And she gave me a crash course and I met big name people in the field and so that started me off on preparation to become qualified as a Natural Family Planning instructor. You had to take special training and I got trained by some of the best people and went back to my diocese. Then one thing led to another. We started a permanent program there and I was asked to show the faculty, in fact to teach them, you know, basic counseling skills that they might be called on to use and I also taught them all about humanity, so that they could be prepared to teach people that. We graduated a lot of human sexuality education for young people in our schools and in the public schools for other church groups and I mean non-denominational groups. That was a big thing then. So, family life apostolate was getting into a lot of church work that required social work skills and at the same time I served on a lot of boards and committees in the civic community, you know, as a good representative for the Church's teaching and as a native and as a woman. So then when our second bishop was appointed, [Bishop Sean O’Malley, OFM Cap.], he asked me to serve as Chancellor for the Diocese. “Now look,” I said, “I only know what a chancery is, Bishop Harper hadn't had a chancery per se. He did his work in his office at the bishop's residence. I helped, as his assistant, but with, you know…” So Bishop O'Malley said, "If I can be bishop, you can be chancellor." [unintelligible] That I was a native and a Black. I was a woman. I was religious. I was a social worker. A combination of many, many things that God had put into my life, you know. So I was placed to be of service and never quite knew... never quite had a job description for chancellor, so it ended up I did whatever the bishop called on me to do. So there then we had Hurricane Hugo. And that knocked St. Croix for a loop. And the Catholic Social Services had gotten a small grant to do a mental health program in St. Croix. And with the hurricane, it could not get started. It was impossible. So Bishop asked me to rewrite the proposal, but to restructure it so that it could be done on St. Thomas. So, I did that 7 �and then began to serve as a head of the mental health program, funded by the government but run by the church. So I did mental health work for a while, using all the background experience and preparation I had ten years ago. And then, what happened next? Next, we got a new bishop. [Bishop Elliot Griffin Thomas], a high school classmate of mine. He was in the public school and he had been at the top of his class and he said when the students came up from St. Peter and Paul, try as he could, he couldn't get further than number three in the line-up. Sister Mary Ellen: I see… Sister Louis Marie: We've been good friends all along. So, his story is fascinating, too. He was a convert from Catholicism. Anyway, Bishop Elliot Thomas is our first Black bishop and from the area and he had been unanimously elected administrator by the priests there until the Pope named him bishop. Well, as administrator, he inherited me as chancellor. I enjoyed immensely working with Bishop Thomas, but then in March 1996, the Catholic Charities of the Virgin Islands ran into some serious problems and Bishop asked me would I be interim director while they tried to get it sorted out. So, I served for a year as interim director and chancellor, and then by 1997 I knew I couldn't do both. So I asked Bishop to relieve me of being chancellor so that I could give full attention to Catholic Charities which so needed what I had to offer. I was a professional social worker, I had a doctorate in social welfare, which wasn't clinical, which is what I needed for this kind of administrative work and so he said, "yes." So, as of March 1997, I am serving as the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in the Virgin Islands. And that brings us up to date. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, fantastic. I want thank you very, very much, Sister Louis, for sharing all these wonderful experiences. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bryan, Sister Louis Marie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; U.S. Virgin Islands; social work; Black sisters Description An account of the resource Description of her education, her career in social work, her experiences as a Black sister Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 26, 1998 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. describes her early life, education and experiences as a Black sister Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 26, 1998 Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Social Service https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/5000a1845e2bf94131aad5edd5540676.jpg 96f611ced5ff0e5f8c2709e3d8d6eb87 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6f68812b3b72fa2a48b371a62b657fec.mp3 06be46f385dee104faeef795f23be475 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/61a40cfecec020315e7976ea58393797.pdf 6de0ed6a8d5af6a614eb3d1bbeb20c8f PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity - Halifax Excerpt of an oral history interview of Sister Maria Clare Kehoe conducted by Sister David Marie Campbell at Mount Saint Vincent Motherhouse in Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1981. Transcribed by Mary Flynn, Congregational Archivist in 2020. Additions in brackets are for context. S. David Marie Campbell: Now there must be a few things in the West that you reallyS. Maria Clare Kehoe: We enjoyed the West very much. Very often Father Coughlin would come take us over to Ladysmith [British Columbia] then we went up Alberni, then another time we went up to St. Joseph's Hospital and we stayed there over two or three nights. All over the island he took us. He said we'd visit around a great many places. He thought that would be a good idea because as we were teaching to know as much as much as you possibly could about what we werewhere we where and what we were going to do and our teaching. So we got many good drives with Father Coughlin. But Father Kennedy came after him. Yeah, he was just a very fine priest. He couldn't do enough for us. I think we were the first ones- He got us a Frigidaire. We didn't have one. And he got us a Frigidaire, put everything in it. And we were very, very happy. In fact, the Redemptorists were wonderful to us, I must say. On our first Christmas, we had a... we put on a show, play. It was a very beautiful one. I still have the pictures, I think the pictures of that play. And the people just went out for us. S. David Marie Campbell: Who was in the play, the children? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: The children, the whole school, Point Grey. And we were then living at St. Helen's. We had 10 miles to go every morning to go to Point Grey. Sometimes we didn't get in there until 10 o'clock on account of the fog. So we'd find perhaps one of the eighth grade girls in our classes looking after or perhaps a Brother, one of the Brothers, because we had to go about 10 miles and byS. David Marie Campbell: How would you go? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: By bus, of course. That took, that took- 10 miles, it took us a good while to get there. Sometimes we would stop for about 15 or 20 minutes when some of the patches of fog would be coming in very heavily. That lasted for one year. And then I believe that was going to... Sister Rosaria was the Superior at St. Joseph's. And people, some Sisters were going to college and she thought, she asked Father Coughlin if he would try and get a house for us out there so the Page 1 of 11 �Sisters could live there. A Sister was going to go- but she didn't come in the end but we got the house. It was very lovely. It was a little grey house. It was only small, but was very, it was handy for four of us. Then finally we got from that house to a larger one called Noma Linda. Very lovely, up on a hill. Beautiful flowers. They had everything, even fruit trees on the land whereas I believe they have the new convent now. Our Sisters are still there. I loved that mission. It was very lovely. S. David Marie Campbell: I've never been west, so. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: No? Beautiful missions. In fact, all the missions were lovely there. Lovely there. We were very, very united as one, all the houses, very united. We'd meet very often, someplace like the Seton Academy, if there's anything going on. Sometimes lectures. I remember we had a couple of lectures from Mr. Coady. He was the lawyer there. I believe he has relatives. I think Sister, Sister David is one of his relatives. Yes, yes very close. He's a very fine, wonderful man. And then we had... there's another place there that we used to go downtown at... the McMasters. They had a tearoom. They're Antigonish people. S. David Marie Campbell: Yes. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And they were very kind to us, very lovely. Three, the three girls couldn't do enough for the Sisters. S. David Marie Campbell: So thenS. Maria Clare Kehoe: I believe now they're all in heaven. Not any of them living. Now Mr. Coady is. S. David Marie Campbell: Yes. Mr. Coady is. I think Miss MacMaster, didn't she marry a McKinnon? Isn't she still living? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I didn't know that. I knew Mrs. Coady very well because she's from Lingan [Cape Breton, Nova Scotia]. I knew her well, but I didn't know her.... I don't know aboutS. David Marie Campbell: MacMasters. Page 2 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: No, no. Rose and Tina and Anna were the three girls. The MacMasters. They were very wonderful people. S. David Marie Campbell: But when did you come back then from the west? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I came back... 1948. I taught 48 years without a let up. S. David Marie Campbell: 48 years? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Yes, I came to Dartmouth [Nova Scotia]. I left Dartmouth '59. I came to the [Mount Saint Vincent] Motherhouse for six months. Then I went to St. Mary's [Covent in Halifax, Nova Scotia] in 1961. I had my hip operation. And then I was at St. Mary's and I tutored some of the children for the school there in reading. I was... though I had a cane, I was able to do a great deal of work. Then I came to the Mount here in '67 because they were going to close St. Mary's. That's what I had understood but it was open for a year after. And when I came here, I also had a pupil that came. I had two pupils that I taught reading to in the afternoon, a couple of hours. Finally I had the second operation in August, that finally put me out of commission. S. David Marie Campbell: Not really. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well almost. I'm able to hop around now a little. S. David Marie Campbell: Yes. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: But then I had the operational on my knee. Two operations from on the 16th [?] 1976 and then '78 on May 20th I had the other operation on the same knee. And yet I am I going. S. David Marie Campbell: You're going, yes. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And I am 93 today. Oh no. S. David Marie Campbell: Page 3 of 11 �No you're not 93. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I'll be 93- uh 94 in May. S. David Marie Campbell: 94 in May, yes, you're saying. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And I'm still going. S. David Marie Campbell: You're still going. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And I hope to... I hope to see... S. David Marie Campbell: Do you want to see 100? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Yes, surely I'll be 100. S. David Marie Campbell: Yes. That'sS. Maria Clare Kehoe: Why not!? S. David Marie Campbell: No that's right too. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I don't want to leave now that we're having such a good time. S. David Marie Campbell: But aren't you glad that you, you lived in the days where things were difficult and are... you wouldn't want to be around these days? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Oh, I wouldn't want those over again. Not for a million dollars. S. David Marie Campbell: No, you wouldn'tPage 4 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: No, no, no. S. David Marie Campbell: You wouldn't? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: No I think this is- you can do so much more for God when you're free. You weren't free then. It was a bell here and a bell there and they were just ringing bells. S. David Marie Campbell: No that- no that's very true. Yes. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: What we didn't like very much was kissing the prie-dieux. You know. Everybody's hands were on those and I very seldom did, I kissed my own hand. S. David Marie Campbell: You didn'tS. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well I did because I felt the germs were on those. Everybody's hands on the prie-dieux. Of course I did. I didn't think it was wrong. And then kissing the floor. I don't know, I neverS. David Marie Campbell: Did you kiss the floor? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I didn't kiss the floor. I kissed my hand. S. David Marie Campbell: You didn't kiss the floor? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well no, no, Sister. The dust, the dirt. S. David Marie Campbell: I wouldn't have thought of that. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: You wouldn't have thought of it? I did. I think that's why I'm living so long. I gotS. David Marie Campbell: Page 5 of 11 �All the shortcuts. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I didn't get those germs going around. S. David Marie Campbell: Knew all the shortcuts. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I did. I had the shortcut. And I think the Lord approved of it, too. S. David Marie Campbell: Well you're very, you seem so, so terribly young, in your head. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I wasn't young when I entered. S. David Marie Campbell: No. And you are now. You're, you're certainly not, not any older in your mind. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well of course I'm not. Why should you be? S. David Marie Campbell: Well you're 93. You're almost 94. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Doesn't matter, dear. Doesn't matter. It's not the age at all. It's how you live. It's just that if you want to live old, you're going to live old. If you want to be young, you've got to live young. That's what I'm living. Young. S. David Marie Campbell: You're living young? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Yes. S. David Marie Campbell: You're still up to tricks. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I'm still up to tricks. I'll play them on anyone. I believe it's good for the soul. S. David Marie Campbell: It's good for thePage 6 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And I love reading stories, especially murders. S. David Marie Campbell: Oh, that's terrible. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well I know, but they're good, they're good. S. David Marie Campbell: Can you sleep at night, if you're reading themS. Maria Clare Kehoe: Oh, I sleep well at night, dear. Have no troubles falling sleep. S. David Marie Campbell: You have good eyesight, your- that's another blessing, too. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: My eyesight is too bad at all. No. S. David Marie Campbell: It might be just sort of providential. You can't run around or God knows what you'd be doing! S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well that's just- I think that's what's happened. Never know what I'd do. Might just run yet, you never know! S. David Marie Campbell: No, I thinkS. Maria Clare Kehoe: Miracles can be performed. S. David Marie Campbell: Well, the LordS. Maria Clare Kehoe: The Lord can perform a miracle that I could I could walk again without anything. S. David Marie Campbell: [laughing] Why would He waste a miracle on you at 93? Page 7 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well why not? Every minute you live is for eternity. S. David Marie Campbell: For eternity? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well, of course. S. David Marie Campbell: Well I think you'll very- you do much better. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: The Lord- He sees that you, you know, you want to live and you want to be good. You want to do more work for him. Why not? I still crochet and knit. S. David Marie Campbell: Oh, I know. That's what I mean. But He wants to- he's trying to hold your back! S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well, I know. butS. David Marie Campbell: He's not having an easy time. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Why would He hold me back? I can keep going. S. David Marie Campbell: But Sister Maria Clare, you're so involved and interested in young people that you know, people if people can come and talk to you as if you were as young as they are, young people, and you're really not that young. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Well of course. I love that. I loveS. David Marie Campbell: You enjoy young people? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I enjoy young people. Yes. I like young people. I don't like people that grumble and growl. I like the young. I like that they're starting out because I just know how I was myself when I started Page 8 of 11 �out. And I feel like that now. I could be young all over again. And start out and be just like one of them. S. David Marie Campbell: Yes. Well, I mean, it's, it's really it's wonderful for the for the young people too, becauseS. Maria Clare Kehoe: I have a great many that come and I'm able to say some things to them. S. David Marie Campbell: And it really is another thing too- it does is for young, even young Sisters coming and talking to an old, old Sister and find out she's not that old, old in her mind. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: No, I don't like that because I don't like them to say "old Sisters." I think they could say... S. David Marie Campbell: No I don't mean they say it but they're able to talk to an old Sister and find she's very young. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I say "senior Sisters." I don't like that word "old." I think that should be taken out of the vocabulary completely. "Old sisters." I know a Sister came in the other day with a flower to me. And she said, "here's a beautiful flower that a lady sent in to an old Sister." Well, I said, "take it right out here, because it doesn't belong to this Sister." And she said, "Oh, but Sister." I said, "now who was the lady?" She said "no, I don't think you know her." Well, I said "you go find the old Sister and give it to her because there's no old Sister in this room. Now please take it out." "Oh," she said "I'll leave it here for a while." Now that flower is still there. But I'm telling her to take it and find that old Sister. And I hope she does soon. S. David Marie Campbell: Do you think there's any old Sisters? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I don't think there is. S. David Marie Campbell: Some people some people are old before their time. So if that applies to religious life, too. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I don't know Sister. I think... they must be suffering from some disease. S. David Marie Campbell: It's a person's temperament. Page 9 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I think, though they must suffer. I don't think anybody would feel old, you know? I think the religious life, they have everything to live for. S. David Marie Campbell: Full life. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I think God is wonderful to call us to this life. S. David Marie Campbell: Well you, you've served- You've taught for 48 years. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: And if I had my life to live over again, I'd do the same thing. I'm positive I would. S. David Marie Campbell: What- did you teach... was it children you taught? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Oh I had beautiful children. Were they ever beautiful. Wherever I went, I'd tell them they were beautiful. S. David Marie Campbell: What grades? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Grade 2, Primary. I loved grade two. Three, the beginners. S. David Marie Campbell: These are interesting. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I had three grades: primary, grade 1, grade 2. That was my class when I went to Vancouver. I did enjoy them. They were just sweet to see it- just see them blossoming out, you know, the little ones come to you. I often felt sorry for those who taught the older ones. They'd come home dragging and worried looking and I was as happy as a lark after teaching those children. That's sad today that there are not enough teaching going on with the little ones. And really it's so- I feel terrible. S. David Marie Campbell: What do you mean, the Sisters not teaching them? Page 10 of 11 �S. Maria Clare Kehoe: The Sisters not teaching. Oh Sister. There's where you get them. I had a number here in the community. They remember from the time they were in my class I used to take them to the chapel and make a visit with Him. And they remember that. I had a number here. Sister Ignace Therese is one, Sister Agnes Bernadette, Sister Justa, that wonderful Sister, God love her! Oh, there's so many I had. And who's this other, there's one up here. Sister... S. David Marie Campbell: Not Laura Brennan? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: Laura Brennan! Yes. S. David Marie Campbell: Did you teach her? S. Maria Clare Kehoe: I remember saying that- I took her up to see the old Sister Ann Teresa that died. And she was laid out and she asked me, "what was it she had in her hand? Is there a piece of paper, that roll of paper?" And I said that was her passport to heaven. And she went home and asked her father what it meant. "Well," he said, "that was the paper that her vows were on and she took it to heaven." He knew about it. She's here. I meet lots of my pupils. But I said from the beginning, I think that children should have teachers and I'm sorry the parochial schools have gone out of commission. There should be more. S. David Marie Campbell: No, there's not very many now. S. Maria Clare Kehoe: They're not. That's a shame, Sister. We're not in contact at all with the children. Page 11 of 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Halifax Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kehoe, Sister Maria Clare, SC, interview [Excerpt] Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Halifax; Teaching; Kehoe, Sister Maria Clare, SC Description An account of the resource Sister Maria Clare Kehoe (1887 - 1986) discusses her life as a Sister of Charity – Halifax. Sister Maria Clare spent 48 years as a teacher to grades primary to 4 and reminisces on her time spent at missions in Vancouver, British Columbia (1927-1948) and Halifax, Nova Scotia (1948-1981). Sister Maria Clare retired at 1959 from teaching and at age 93, is reflecting on her experience as a self-proclaimed “Senior Sister." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Campbell, Sister David Marie, SC; Kehoe, Sister Maria Clare, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity – Halifax Congregational Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flynn, Mary (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity – Halifax Congregational Archivist. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:16:23 Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SCHalifax_Kehoe Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1927-1981 Education Sisters of Charity of Halifax https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/bf13f8ec9cb25e0e37ccea23be487017.jpg 6ff1209a96861c48f5c0eaf77e621268 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3b3b3b1532187134c1e84cd52fe3e139.mp3 db6600ed99dfe1f156b024a3e0fa42b5 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/380add82bde7b08b490c629d869ce13e.pdf 8bb63abdc719bf5c70e873981b7295c7 PDF Text Text SISTER LINDA CHAVEZ – ORAL HISTORY CD # 83 [Bracketed words are additions by S. Linda upon review.] Today is June 27, 2011 and I, S. Victoria Marie Forde, am in S. Linda Chavez's room [Motherhouse] ready to begin her oral history. Victoria: Linda, your folder in the Archives is filled with articles and papers about your wonderful life and your many accomplishments and honors. Now, when you have just reached 85, besides highlights of your life, perhaps you will also share your experiences within the Community and Church during your almost 64 years in the Community. But right now let's begin at the beginning. Linda: I am a daughter of Leo and Leanor Chavez. My mother was born Leanor Perea and was a school teacher and married Leo Chavez who had been married and his wife had died. They were both in their late 20's. A year later she gave birth to twins. My twin brother, Leo, was born first, and then I came along. Victoria: Was this all in San Isidro? Linda: Mother went up from Albuquerque where she was living to visit her mother before the baby came, and to her surprise the babies came on May 31st when she was visiting in San Isidro [about fifty miles from Albuquerque]. My uncle had to go to Bernalillo to get a doctor because there is not one in San Isidro and help with the delivery. [The babies were born at Grandma's house.] She had two well babies. We didn't grow up as though we were the same age because Leo was much slower in developing than I was. So, even though he did graduate from high school, it was four or five years after I did. But he was a wonderful human being, loved people, and people loved him. [He died at age 76.] As my sister Priscilla, who was born a year later says, "I am sorry I didn't die before Leo because I don't know who will come to my funeral." At his funeral the Church was full. Victoria: Then you went to the University of New Mexico? Linda: I went to public school first. I was only four years old when I forced my mother to take me to the kindergarten because my two aunts who are just two years and three-anda-half years older than me were at Eugene Field School, and if they could go I could go. So she went with me to the kindergarten to see if the teacher would take me, and she said to my mother, "She speaks English, so I will keep her." So I was only 5 years old in the first grade so that makes me graduating a little earlier than most. Victoria: And you are bilingual? Linda: That is right. [English was spoken at home. Our maternal grandmother lived with us for four winters. She did not speak English, so we learned our Spanish from her.] When I was in sixth grade is when I moved to the [St. Vincent] Academy, and I knew nothing about Sisters. �Victoria: This is St. Vincent's Academy in Albuquerque, right? Linda: Yes, I graduated from the Academy, and then went on to UNM and I needed one semester to graduate, and that is when I told my mother and father that I wanted to go to the convent. She said, "We won't talk about it until you are 21." So I did work for my father for a year and entered in 1947, and I had those six credits to get before I got my degree. Victoria: Then once you went on a mission you had many different classes that you still kept up with? Linda: Well, I can honestly say that it is only two classes that are real close to me. The first two years I was a teacher at Corpus Christi Grade School in Dayton, and I had those youngsters for two years, so they are the class that know me best, and they had me all day long. And the next year I went to [Holy Trinity] Middletown for one ninth grade. It was the last ninth grade of the Middletown [Holy Trinity} High School. There were only twenty-four in that class, and they were very self motivated students. So they became very close to me and since then they seem to want to visit with me whenever I come East, and we get to see each other almost every year. Victoria: Maybe you could just mention your degrees. You did get quite a few degrees. Linda: Well, I got a BA degree in Education and a Master's degree in Family Life Education which is called Home Ec and a master's in Theology. Victoria: But you did go to St. Louis [University] for Spanish though? Linda: No, I went to St. Louis for Family Life Education. I went to Loyola of Chicago for my Theology. Victoria: You just took Spanish classes at St. Louis? Linda: No, I took some college grad classes in Spanish,but they are mostly Spanish Literature. I had taken Spanish in high school, and of course the family spoke both languages. While my education at St. Louis University was very good and also helpful for Theology, after starting my graduate studies in Theology, it was during the time just before and after Vatican II. I was so conscious of the fact that we tried too hard not only to prepare the students for responding to the Vatican II, but also their parents. Every year we had classes for parents in order to help them understand Vatican II. Victoria: Where are you teaching then? Linda: In Middletown and Springfield and of course [two] years in Michigan. And from there I was missioned to Albuquerque. We continued there to try to not only teach the students but also the parents [about Vatican II]. Victoria: And your theology background is from Loyola then? Linda: Yes, all Jesuits. St. Louis, Loyola, and Albuquerque was always Jesuits. So I feel like I am a Jesuit girl. I probably would have been a Jesuit, but I can't join them! Victoria: So then once Vatican II did happen, or did occur, then some changes were happening in the Community too. �Linda: Yes, and I was very pleased that I really felt called to be an ambassador for the Vatican II because many people were resistant to it. I think that was even true in the Community – that we were going too fast or moving too fast and I was asked to be on the habit committee in 1965. That was when we were not thinking of not wearing a habit but changing from the black habit and veil to a simpler dress, and for some reason they called it the Seton blue, which was not navy blue or light blue. It was just a little kind of a turquoise blue. It was a Seton blue as we called it. Even that was interesting to see the change was well received by some and not so well received by others. But soon, speaking of habit, there was a motion toward more changes in the habit. I was still on the habit committee, and we had done a study of material and everything to see whether this is important or not. For the Chapter, I think it was the Chapter of '69, I was asked to give the report on the habit committee and I remember coming to the old Novitiate room and finding S. Ellenora [Hilbers] there. She said to me, "Dearie, I hope you are going to keep us in the Seton blue." And I said, "Well, I am not sure of that," and the one reason was the habit committee had noticed that there were going to have to be much bigger changes than that, and that people in other communities were moving toward a modern dress. So she said to me, "Keep us in our Seton blue." So I went in and gave my report, and in those days you didn't stay to find out what happened so I left, and I was studying at that time in some place in San Antonio and having classes there. Victoria: So you weren't even in Cincinnati? Linda: No, I wasn't in Cincinnati, and I had flown, and summer school was over, and I had always. . . . During the Chapter we received the reply every day, and that particular day it never came, and until I got home I found out that they had voted for an option of dress. And that was like "What does that mean?" And it meant just what we said: that people could begin to move toward what they thought was comfortable. And for me it was definitely to be in a modern dress and look like the rest of women. Victoria: Why was that important? Linda: It was important to me because sometimes when I had been in Cincinnati, probably living in Middletown, I made the Cursillo, and the Cursillo is always four women or four men. And I was with a group of women, and I was so conscious of being deferred to because I was in my full black habit or blue habit or whatever habit I had on. It was a barrier to being feeling the same. And those women were beautifully spiritual and caring and wanting to please God as I was. And here I was being looked up at as if I come from another age or space. Victoria: Like on a pedestal? Linda: Right. And so that made me decide I wanted an option of dress because I didn't want that separation from the rest of the Catholic women. So I was very. . . . But one little thing I did, I was already in Albuquerque at St. Pius [High School], and my mother had an account at Kistler Collister's Victoria: Which is a department store? �Linda: Yes. So many of the sisters [I lived with] didn't want to go shopping and try on things. So I asked my mom if I could use her credit card and just take some clothes back to the convent so that the sisters who didn't want to shop for themselves could look at something and see how it would look on them or what size they needed. You know, at that time people didn't even know what their size was. So that became a very lucrative investment, and so we gradually, we were at least thirteen of us at the convent at the time, and we gradually started wearing a little more modern dress. And being a seamstress I helped people sew, and I sewed for myself, and we gradually started knowing what we wanted and what we needed. Victoria: The worst thing was trying on bathing suits. Linda: Well, that early we didn't come to the Mount to bathe [swim], so that was not a problem. It was quite a few years later that we bought a bathing suit. But I am sure nobody tried it on at the store. Today is Tuesday, June 28, 2011, and Linda Chavez is back here with me, S. Victoria Marie Forde, in a room at the Motherhouse to continue her oral history, her amazing oral history. Linda, let's talk about the variety of boards that you have been on. I counted fifteen boards--six national boards and nine local boards. Is there anything outstanding that you can think of about being on any of those boards? Is there anything that you would like to mention? Linda: Well, I think, especially as a young Sister I was really happy to have the experience of being on national boards. And I remember, I can't remember the sister's name who was very prominent in our Community [S. Mary Janet Miller], she had been an officer, and she asked me to take her place on a board which was the National Catholic Conference for Interracial Justice. That was in the 70s. It gave me an opportunity as an Hispanic sister to be present to people who are talking about the changes in respect for other nationalities in the country. Victoria: And I see that you have received many honors. The ones I see on your resume are one that you received was the S. Mary Lea Human Service Award from the College, and the 20th Annual New Mexico Conference on Aging in appreciation for dedicated services to the seniors of New Mexico. And a special achievement award, the Senior Foundation Senior Hall of Fame in Albuquerque, and also you are in the Hall of Fame at St. Pius High School. Is there anything special you want to talk about with that? Linda: I think being on the Hall of Fame in Albuquerque is the fact that we did work through S.E.T. with a number of communities of seniors. And I think that was probably the reason and having been the director of it. Victoria: Were you the only woman in that? Linda: No. I would have been the only Sister. Victoria: The only Sister in that Hall of Fame?! �We haven't talked about S.E.T. yet, but would you like to talk about S.E.T.? If you don't mind, I would rather hold off for that a little bit. In 1978 you started a Scripture group. You are such an initiator of things. Could you tell us a little bit about that – at your home in Albuquerque? Linda: Well, I just feel that one of the things we need, I need, is to share Scripture with someone. It makes it more meaningful. I think we can read and read and not apply, and I guess I learned it here. I don't know where [I learned] of having groups to get together, and I think it comes out of maybe even the movement of where they were having prayer groups, charismatic groups, you know. And I do think that sharing Scripture is so important, and so I invited a few women. And it comes out also of working with the Cursillo because the Cursillo forms groups. After the Cursillo the women are to meet with a group of women every week and discuss their life, their Christian life, and that wasn't as easy for me to do as it was if I had my own group. And I had friends, and we decided to start talking about the Scriptures and get ready for the Sunday to come. It has been a real wonderful experience to know that I am going to be reading the Scriptures with others, and it started way back in '79, and it just kept up. Victoria: And this is lay women and Sisters, right? Linda: Oh yes, a mixture. Mostly lay women at first, and then some of the Sisters did join. Victoria: And someone in that group dedicated a book to you? Linda: Well, Nancy Morrison, who is a teacher at the University of New Mexico and is a psychiatrist was one of the members of my group, and she does, when she and her partner were writing, she does dedicate the one book, I am one of the ones she dedicated it to, and I was really honored my that. Victoria: It was an excellent book too. Then your home, besides being a place for the Scripture group, is certainly a place for community building. Do you want to talk about how you gathered the Sisters of Charity and not just in Albuquerque but in New Mexico actually, isn't it, or in Texas when they were there? Linda: Well I guess being an initiator anyway, you know I gather people, and so I think it is just part of my nature. It is not that I decided that this is the thing to do, but I like to invite people, and no matter where I have been, having been the Home Economics teacher and also the buyer of food, you tend to feed people. That is one way of gathering them. So I don't remember how that. . . . I think it did come out of the Cursillo movement. We decided to start meeting, and I know especially Marie Baca [was a result of her cursillo]. . . . Victoria: She is an Associate? Linda: No, she is not an Associate. She has been in the group forever. She didn't want to meet with the Cursillo women because her husband wasn't meeting with his group. So I asked her if she wanted to join us. So she has been one of the most faithful since way back in '78. But it is nice, and it has been going on, and we meet every Tuesday night to get ready for the Sunday. �Victoria: That is still the Scripture group you are talking about? What about the Sisters of Charity? That's what I was thinking of. Linda: Well, most of the time I had been in some kind of leadership, and so you gather, and it is just the same old thing that I am an initiator, and you start saying, "Let's celebrate this Jubilee," or "Let's do this," and you know you need somebody to start it, and I am one of those starters I guess you would call it. Victoria: And I have been the recipient of some of those wonderful celebrations and delicious food. Then you do have celebrations now? You are kind of moving over, you said that you are moving over to a new place, but I have seen how many people in your little apartment still, you know, gathered, somehow you do that. Linda: Well, twenty-four last Christmas, and we all fit! We play games and it was fun. Victoria: You said there were how many when you went to Albuquerque and now there are . . . ? Linda: When I went back in '69, we were close to 72 sisters between Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But you have to understand we had two hospitals, a high school and grades schools, and now we are down to 10. Victoria: And even so you are still gathering. Linda: Yes. Victoria: Now you have a lot of volunteer work in your resume. I didn't even count how many. But right now you are still a volunteering in six places including Good Shepherd. Shall we move on to Good Shepherd, but you have to tell us how you got to the Good Shepherd. You were in S.E.T. and maybe you should tell us… Linda: No, S.E.T. has nothing to do with the Good Shepherd. Victoria: No, but I mean you were working with S.E.T. before you went to Good Shepherd ,and do you want to tell us a little bit about S.E.T. before you are finished. Linda: Well, when we were working with St. Joseph Community Health, one of the things we had was a number of clinics, and we visited the older people and nurses would take their vital signs, and they knew we were coming once a month. So that person came often. And then when St. Joseph took over the clinics and things, soon they dropped the clinics. They only had. . . Now their goal is only to take care of children from zero to five which is fine, but it dropped all of the seniors. So S.E.T., which stands for Service, Empowerment, Transformation, did try to continue for some time with St. Joseph you know to help, but they dropped the money to pay the nurses, and so we had to change it. Victoria: At first was S.E.T. of Albuquerque? It became S.E.T. of New Mexico, didn't it? Linda: It has always been S.E.T. for Health of New Mexico. Victoria: And you were the one who got all the nurses volunteering. Linda: Well, some were volunteering, and some of the S.E.T. nurses were paid for because you can't have everybody being a freelancer, but we had a lot of volunteers too. �Victoria: Do you have any idea how many nurses you had? I bet you had many. Linda: It is too far away from. . . . Victoria: So after S.E.T. closed, or you left S.E.T., then you found another job, or another volunteer position I should say. Linda: Well, I'm trying to get it chronologically in my head, but one day I was at a meeting at the Brothers of Good Shepherd because I am on the Vocation Committee for the Archdiocese, and Brother Charles had taken me around to see what they do there, and during the meeting I kept saying, "I really never have worked with the real poor, materially poor." And it was bothering m, and so after the meeting I said to Brother Charles, " I need to do something down here." Now when I say "down here," it is in a poor area of Albuquerque and we would always consider it "down there." Victoria: What is happening at the Good Shepherd place? Linda: And so he said, "I can't talk about it today because I have another meeting, but can I see you tomorrow and we will talk about it?" And he wanted to know what I have done, and so at the end of that he said, "How would you like to be our spiritual counselor?" And I said, "What do I have to do?" And he said, "Listen." Well, that is a challenge. So I said, "Well, I would like to do that, and maybe I could come on Tuesdays and Thursdays." So I go every Tuesday and Thursday from 9:00 to 12:00, and they announce that I am present and they can come to the counseling room I am in. Victoria: Can you describe a little more about the Good Shepherd ministry? Linda: They have in residence homeless men ages from fourteen to maybe fifty-five, and they help them not only to start taking care of what their life has to be, but also to keep them safe. Many of them are trying to rehabilitate from alcohol or drugs or both. They can be there six to nine months. It is a rigid program, but it is excellent because if they can succeed in that, they are open to going back into the world. I am there twice a week to see anybody. The thing that is important is it's not that the Brothers just don't want to do what I am doing, but they don't have time. There are only four or five Brothers in the whole program. They are busy with administration and all of that. So I am free to just listen, and sometimes it is an hour, an hour and a half with one person. And as Charles said, "I don't have that kind of time." It is really wonderful. Victoria: They also serve meals don't they too? Linda: At the center every day at 3:00 the public is free to come for a meal, and it can be men, women and children. They usually have approximately three hundred every day. They don't feed on Sunday. It is one of the only places they can get a meal and so they have many, many there and then they do have the ones that are in residence. Victoria: And they are also working to help feed the people. Linda: Oh, they do help feed them, and they have a number of volunteers that come in every day. Victoria: Today is June 26, 2012, and Linda Chavez is here to finish her oral history, and there might be some overlapping, but Linda has had such an interesting life that it won't �matter. So, Linda, tell us about your time teaching and watching the ordination of deacons. Linda: I don't remember the date, but it was in the 1970s, I think, that a representative from the Bishop's office called me and asked if I would be one of five women that he has chosen to be trained for the diaconate, and I said yes. And so I think three of us persevered for a year or year and a half, and we went to all the meetings with the deacons and their wives. And occasionally there was a need for someone to teach the sacraments or whatever, and it is very hard to find someone to just step in and so one of the deacons said, " Sister teaches theology at Pius [High School]; she can teach us." So very often I was the substitute for one of the teachers, and so it was kind of a crazy thing to be in the class and teaching it as well. But we persevered through all the meetings, and it was obvious that some of the men resented the five women that were there. But however, I can't say that they were against us, but they would make remarks, "Why are they here?" And so it was time for them to be ordained deacons, and we were still hanging in there. And the Bishop invited us to come to the ceremony, and Archbishop Sanchez announced that while we were ready to be, we were trained already, but he did not have the authority to ordain us. And he said, "However, I want you to come up, and I will consecrate you for service." In my mind I did that long ago. And so we went to the ordination, and it was a little sad to be in the back of the line and know that the ceremony was not really for us. And there was just a kind of a little blessing at the end. So that was the beginning and the end. What did happen during, and even after that, I helped with some of the training. I don't remember how many years that lasted, but I did. Victoria: Several years? Linda: I think so. They'd call and say, "Sister, would you teach sacraments?" or "Would you teach . . .whatever?" Victoria: You told me one time about the wives insisting on going up with their husbands. Linda: No, that was every ordination of deacons. I don't think it was special. [They walk into church with their spouses.] Victoria: Tell us about becoming vicar. Linda: When I went to Albuquerque in 1969, I had been in Lansing, and I was on the Sisters Council--we formed it, in Lansing. And I was asked to be president, and Bishop of Lansing was very pleased, but very disappointed when I told him I was leaving the diocese to return to Albuquerque. And so when I got to Albuquerque, I asked around if there was a council for religious, and there was not an active council. So I went to see [Arch]bishop Davis, and he said, "I want you to form a Sisters Council. So I contacted the different religious communities, and at that time we had a representative of every congregation on the Council, and it got �to be too big. And then we had, like Sisters of Charity of any color or kind, or Dominicans, and then it was a little smaller and it was better. Bishop Davis started that, and then he said to me, "Well, other dioceses have a vicar. I guess I'll appoint you vicar." And I said to him, "I think the women want a man." I did say that, and I think it was true because I was conscious that that was the right feeling because when we went down south to [see] a kind of a cloistered group in New Mexico, I can't remember their name right now, but the president of that little group was constantly talking only to Father Kemper who was the other vicar for religious. We were both called vicar for religious. But she was much more ready to talk to him than to me, so I think that was a wise thing that there was a man and a woman. And later on though I went to. . . . Victoria: First, Linda, he wanted you to be vicar, one vicar, but then you suggested that he have a man too. That's when Father Kemper. . . . Linda: Yes, we were working together all this time, so he was vicar, and I was vicar. It turned out to be a good idea because some congregations were used to having a man come to do all the things vicars do like getting someone ready to become a member of their congregation and to ask if they joined willingly. So that was how it started. Archbishop Davis was one of the first to have a woman vicar, but there was a Sister Clare—I can't remember what congregation—around Ohio [corrected: Michigan] area, and she was vicar. Victoria: At the same time as you were? Linda: At the same time, yes. Victoria: So you two were probably the first women vicars in the United States. Linda: That's right. Victoria: That's wonderful. Linda: And so, and there have been women vicars ever since both in Albuquerque and other places. What's the next question? Victoria: Before I go on to the next question, is there anything that happened that was outstanding while you were a vicar? Linda: Only that it was very difficult to be a full time teacher and a vicar because you only had weekends to visit anybody, and that was usually what the vicar does. And it was good that we had both because Jim could go to some because he could get off . I mean he was a pastor, but. . . . Victoria: He was a full time pastor, and you were a full time teacher. Linda: Right. Victoria: Was the archdiocese all of the State of New Mexico, or was it divided already? �Linda: It was already divided. Victoria: But it was a pretty large area. Linda: It was very large, too large. Victoria: It's really from the north to. . . . Linda: There is a , --the diocese goes up north, I think, to the border and then south to Las Cruces; Las Cruces had a bishop, and Gallup had a bishop. Victoria: Still very large. All right. Now you said you were a full time teacher, and one of the interesting things you did was the innovative teaching of spirituality and the arts? Linda: We called it Spirituality through the Arts. Victoria: This is at St. Pius High School, Albuquerque. Linda: I was the head of the department of theology, and for two summers before we started, I took S. Augusta [Zimmer] 's class at the Mount. And while Sisters of Charity had taught me music, art was not ever mentioned if you were not an artist. You didn't know anything about art. And that summer, those two summers that I took those classes, I thought, "We are so lacking. . . ." In most Catholic schools do not have money for an art teacher or a music teacher for all pupils, not just for musicians." So especially after the second year of taking her class, I decided I would have a unit of my Christian Family Living as art formation so that that family would appreciate music and art. So I had the art appreciation unit for about six or nine months, nine weeks in the course. And it was interesting how much the students appreciated it. I used to get slides and pictures from the library, and, you know, to be able to recognize a Monet or to recognize a Van Gogh or whatever. . . To this day people tell me they still remember the artists, and this is a Home Ec class you understand, but it really was my desire in teaching Home Economics it was to teach Family Life Education, and I did all the units. And the one that some of the boys appreciated was when I would bring some of my former pupils' babies would come to the class, so that the boys could learn how to hold a baby, and that was great. The art appreciation was also well taken, and I thought that was a good add-on to the course. Victoria: Especially with all the art in New Mexico! I mean from Georgia O'Keefe, the outsider, to the Hispanic and the Native American art, oh my gosh! Linda: I don't know if I concentrated on that because I was really following Sister Augusta's class because to understand what kind of art you're looking at, and who are the great artists are. I'm not putting New Mexico down, but this was trying to get it more universal. Victoria: Now, you did talk about the Brothers, the time with the Brothers. Linda: That's the last thing I've been doing. �Victoria: Yes, and that's in our first interview, but I wondered if you wanted to talk anymore about that, and especially we had kind of left off where they were feeding other people. You know, they had dinners there, and. . . . Linda: The program at the Brothers of the Good Shepherd is awesome. I was talking to Father [Joe] Bruening, and he said he had never seen anything working like that. And they have thirty –four men who are in a program of rehabilitation from either alcohol or drugs, or both. And it's a . . . . Victoria: And you said they were convicts? Linda: The reason you say they are convicts is he used the word. Victoria: Brother ? Linda: Father Bruening. He used the word, but most of the men who end up at Good Shepherd have either an addiction, and usually if you have an addiction, you're not too honest either. So some of them. . . You steal so that you get drinks, and you break into houses so that you can buy drink or whatever, so that's the kind how it's double. But they have to go through s pretty rigorous evaluation for them to get in, it's for six or nine months. And it's the best program in the state which gets the best results. Some of have been there twice. And it's interesting; sometime the first question I asked is "How did you get here?" And it's awfully interesting to find out that somebody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia or wherever comes to the Brothers of the Good Shepherd. "Who told you about it?" "Oh, somebody said that it was a good program,"and they write and come and get in. There are about thirty-four men at any given time in the program. Now the men do all the work in the center. They plan the meals, they prepare the meals, they serve them. And at 3 o'clock every day (I think there's one day they don't serve.) the public is open to anybody on the street, man, woman, or child. Victoria: For dinner. Linda:For a meal [for the public]. The men serve it. And it's amazing when you're talking to the men privately, how impressed they are when that giving that service. Victoria: You said there one hundred served? Linda: Any given day two to three hundred people. Victoria: One meal a day. Linda: One meal, but of course they get all their meals. [Residents get three meals a day.] Victoria: Well, I've take a tour with you through the facility, and I saw how, just how loving the men were with you, hugging you and so happy to see you. Linda: Oftentimes the people have come in to see me, you know, recognize me if I'm not in the office, but around. I guess for me for a person to trust you with their life story—it's awesome. And I guess I hadn't experienced things like that before in my life, and it's just a like a privilege to be gifted that way. �Victoria: And also the Brothers have been very good to the Sisters, allowing them to have events there? Linda: Well, not at the Center, of course, but a few years ago they—I don't know what gave them the feeling that they were going to get more members, and someone said, "You're going to have to build and make your home larger." And they built a whole big section which is almost always empty because they're about –I don't know. . . if they're about six to eight people there. Victoria: Brothers. Linda: Brothers. And so whenever we have company, men coming into the city, I send them over there. Brother Gerard says he just feels good when he can offer the place to somebody else. Victoria: But the Sisters have had events there? Linda: Oh, and of course we've got a big kitchen and dining room, and we've started to go there for some events. Sister Vincentia [Roney] is over there a lot. I mean I don't know what. . . . She works with them too, so she says, "Oh, let's have it over at the Good Shepherd," because they have a great big dining room and a big kitchen, and they're very accommodating. Victoria: Well, that's nice, especially since there are no big convents to have a big meeting. Linda: That's right. Victoria: And I've seen them at your apartment, "hanging out the windows," spread out. Well, is there anything else you want to add about your life? You know, I have some other questions, but just about your own life. Linda: I'm trying to think. Victoria: Linda, it's now Sept. 4, 2012, and a lot has happened since we had the last session. Since then you've moved to the Motherhouse to live, so would you want to say anything about that? Linda: Well, it's a very easy transition, and I think we were very surprised and happy that we got such a warm welcome, walked in the dining room, and everyone stood up and clapped. Rose (Therese Wich) was very happy too, and everything is running very smoothly. And I'm very happy, I mean with the decision, and it was time to come. Victoria: We just want to finish this oral history, but I was wondering if you could give us some idea of what your dreams are or what your hopes are for the future of the Community or the Church or whatever you want to talk about. Linda: Well, I think we all want to think ahead and see what's going to happen, and I hope that I and all the Sisters can be open to the plan that God has because we don't know what is in the future, and I for one hope that I'm ready to receive whatever blessings or whatever comes next. Victoria: Thank you very much, Linda. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chavez, Sister Linda, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48 Minutes 31 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Albuquerque (N.M.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Linda Chavez by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chavez, Sister Linda, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2011 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926-2011 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati