3 10 108 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1a0a02ae8321afae5a46c49205796823.jpg 97c4ef393ed2027b0b9c8f20864a50f4 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6379a8f53047c1076384acd299bd3f8f.mp3 941cbf4d91db64c2e7f447934191b920 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/fb5cf7ac97c2707abbe71d86548fb1b7.pdf ffe3cc9ff88fe7dcbfb7753fec6ca9e1 PDF Text Text Name of Sister: Sr. Dorothy Marie Hill [Excerpt] Format: Audio-Cassette (35-TC; #712) Original Recording: August 26, 2003 Interviewer: Sister Elaine Wheeler Transcriber and date of transcription: Elissa Armater, December 3, 2005 Which Daughter of Charity seemed to impress you most and sort of led you into the Community? No one Sister had any major influence. I applied. When I finally came to the Community, I finished college at St. John’s [University], and I don’t know why I became a Daughter of Charity. My ambition as I was finishing college was to be a cloistered nun, and I approached in very tentative ways both the Carmelites and the Trappestines. I really can’t at this length of time pin down why I became a Daughter of Charity. I remember looking at the time. There were no Sisters [referring to the Daughters] in Brooklyn or in New York. The whole difficulties between the black caps [Sisters of Charity of New York] and the white caps had kept them away. I remember looking up “Daughters of Charity” in the Catholic Encyclopedia and reading that St. Vincent’s telling them that “The Poor shall be your Office.” One of my great ambitions was to recite the Divine Office in choir as the cloistered sisters did, which was one of the reasons I wanted to be a cloistered nun. And that saying, which I have never seen any place else except that article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, impressed me very much. I joined the Community on September 8, 1951 as a postulant at Emmitsburg. We were the first band that made our postulatum at Emmitsburg and there were 38 of us. Postulatum was extremely disappointing to me. I had a very good time, but I felt as if I was in boarding school with a whole bunch of young kids because I was a mature woman at 21 and they were all 17 or 19! The seminary was more satisfying. My father was in awe of the whole thing, but my mother kept saying what a peculiar outfit this was. And she meant not just the clothing, which she found very peculiar, but the entire outfit. Everything about it struck her as funny or horrifying. I received the habit in January of 1953 and went to Seton High School very soon after that as my first mission. I spent 25 years teaching high school at Seton High School, at Bishop England High School in Charleston, South Carolina; in Portsmouth [Virginia; Portsmouth Catholic High School], in Syracuse [Cathedral Academy], in Petersburg [Virginia; St. Joseph’s School], and in Emmitsburg [Maryland; St. Joseph’s High 1 �School]. My 25 years of teaching were a delight. I enjoyed the subject matter, I enjoyed the children, and I think I was fairly successful. What subjects did you teach? Mostly English and later Religion. I had other things, as we all do, but those were the subjects I was prepared in and enjoyed teaching. I gave you a list of places I was, and they were all high schools. Most of them, either the Sisters aren’t teaching in the school anymore, as in Bishop England High School, or the school is closed. When I was thinking about saying all this, I began to think about how trendy my life has been. The closing of the schools that I attended and the schools I was taught at is one of the big marks of the history of the Church in the United States during these years, the 20’s through the 60’s. It certainly has affected my life but whether it has been for the good of the Church or for its loss, we’re too close to to really come to any well thought out conclusion, but my own history certainly does prove out. One of the great turning points of my life came right about the time that I finished thinking about teaching for 25 years. I went to Seton High School actually three times on mission – my first mission and then in the 60’s again. When Vatican Council II was just coming to an end – I think it ended in ’59? I think it’s closer to ’62. Sixty-two. At that time, when it was still in session, but very close to an end, I was at Seton High School teaching English. Sister Enrica Federal was the principal, and Sister Enrica, an innovator and very impulsive sort of person, and she decided it would be good to institute a real religion department as an academic unit rather than as a frill, which it was up to that time. Every Sister that had a home room taught religion, which meant that you really had no professional religion teachers. She decided that it would be good to make it an academic department and get a few people trained in the new trends that would be coming with the end of Vatican II. She went around, and she asked people if they’d like to study religion or theology. I had the sense to say yes, and three of us went. It was very delightful experience and a soul changing, life changing experience. Three of us from Seton High School in Baltimore went every Friday night by train. We went up to New York City, stayed at Kennedy [Child Study] Center [where Daughters were missioned], and on Saturday morning went up to Fordham [University] and took a course with the Novak Brothers [Joseph and Vincent Novak], who were Jesuits who were trying to form a Vatican II curriculum for high school religion departments. Every Saturday morning for a semester, we went up there and listened to the Novaks. One of the high points, one of the magnificent things that happened, one Saturday morning, Vincent Novack brought in the New York Times for that morning, and he read to us the unofficial translation of the Vatican document on the Liturgy. We were sitting in the back of the classroom, because we were still were wearing the cornette, and I sat 2 �and listened to Vince Novak and cried like a baby because it was so – it fulfilled all the aspirations and yearnings that I had had about Liturgy and what Liturgy should mean in our lives. That was only one of the great excitements. And sure enough through the next couple years, the religion classes at Seton became the equal of all the other classes and we had a religion department with a faculty and tried to form a modern Vatican II curriculum. Those days of the Council and of the post-Councillor changes – I don’t like to call them changes because it’s a more profound conversion than just changes – were probably the most exciting and hopeful optimistic days of my whole life because so many of the wishes and dreams and ideals that were hardly expressed or hardly recognized began to become true. Sister Cecilia Geary and I in I think it was 1964 went out to St. Louis to the liturgical conference, and it was the first time in the United States that a congregation, an assembly, at Mass had recited the Our Father in unison in English. With a huge stadium type meeting hall in St. Louis, so you had thousands of people all as excited as I was about Vatican II saying the Our Father together. Again, it was this exciting high point in individuals’ lives and in the life of the Church. For me, one of the big effects of all of this Liturgy and Bible study – that’s when I got into the Bible. I went to Catholic University for a couple summers in the religious education department and had a few Bible courses and just fell into Bible study. I didn’t go to school enough. I would have liked to have gone more, but I was not permitted to. But I’ve been able to follow on my own Bible study, and I must say, it has so enthralled me that, I’m more disciplined about Bible study than about any studying that I’ve ever done in my whole life. One of the effects of all this was that I came to the conclusion that I should not teach in high school any more because the service of the poor became more and more important and primary in my life. High school became more and more expensive so that the service of the economically poor was almost impossible. That’s when I decided that I would try change my ministry. I was lucky enough to come to the Northeastern Province where Sister Mary Basil [Roarke] at the time was the Provincial. She looked very kindly on those sorts of aspirations. So without too much ceremony, I was able to go to St. Mary’s Parish in Troy [New York] to become a Parish Associate. I went to St. Mary’s – I forget the year [1973-74 school year] – but it was the year St. Mary’s School closed, which was extremely traumatic on everybody because St. Mary’s for the Community was such an old mission. Sisters had been teaching there for 150 years or something since 1848. That hundred and more years had become so traditional, and for the Parish, the institution of the school was one of their great prides. They gave it up not just with reluctance but with hostility. That year in which the school closed was very traumatic, but it was a very happy year for me, because we had priests in the parish at the time who were very anxious to form a team ministry and to share ministry not just among themselves but with the whole Parish. We formed a team ministry of priests and sisters and lay people, seven people all together. I remained at St. Mary’s for six years. It was, for me, a very happy experience. 3 �Because of the freedom of that team ministry and the members of the team, I was able to minister in very untraditional ways. We did the traditional things. One of the joys was that I taught the First Communion class. I became sort of a a paralegal, an advocate for people on welfare, food stamps, SSI – Social Security – what have you, to help them negotiate those systems. These were the poorest of the poor, and Troy was rich in poor people. Again, it was a turning point in my life to discover the poor and to discover the joy. St. Vincent said, “The poor are my burden and my sorrow,” and I found that to be true, but I also found it to be true that the poor were my joy and my delight. As that period of my life ended, I was missioned to Boston to Laboure Center in South Boston. I was supposed to work there, but somehow I just didn’t fit in. I didn’t fit into South Boston, and I didn’t fit in very well to the work of Laboure Center. Just by accident, truly – I’m sure not accident, but providence, but it seemed very casual at the time – I met a group of people who were interested in serving the homeless, and we became friends, and eventually just very sweetly it worked out that we started a shelter for homeless families, the fist shelter for homeless families in Boston. Sister Adele Waters was part of the circle, and the other four founders were a Jesuit priest and three young graduate school students all in their twenties, very wise, very charming young people [According to the National Jesuit News, the three other founders were Father Andrew Sedensky, S.J., Patti Muldoon, and Mike Whelan]. By guess and by gosh, we managed to find the money to find a building, a parish rectory in Roxbury in Boston and to start Sojourner House. S-O-U-J-O-U-R-N-E-R, Sojourner. It was named for Sojourner Truth, one of the great heroines of the abolition movement and of Women’s Rights in 19th Century America. It was also named in honor of the Biblical concept of the Sojourner. In the Book of Deuteronomy, it speaks of the Sojourner in your midst that Israel must always look out for the Sojourner and take care of the Sojourner and not oppress the Sojourner even though that Sojourner is far from being an Israelite. That again was another high point in my life because we were penetrating further into the depths of poverty and into the depths of the wealth of the poor and the straights to which poverty can drive people. We finally, I think it was the fourth year of operation, when we realized we had a budget of $150,000. Up to that point, we had a few small grants, but mostly it was free will donations. I might mention here that both the Jesuits and Daughters of Charity gave the services of their members free. The Daughters of Charity never demanded any kind of salary or compensation and neither did the Jesuits for the work of the Jesuit priests. I spent six years working without a salary at Sojourner House. Actually, I asked to be missioned, because I knew if I stayed there much longer I wouldn’t be able to leave. What kind of people came to Sojourner House? 4 �Homeless families. Generally women and children. The husbands and fathers were either non-existent or were very shy about coming to live in a family shelter. So in general, it was women and their children who came. We did have a couple of fathers in the course of the years. These were people who were... At the time, the homeless problem in Boston was growing by leaps and bounds. The rental housing was becoming exorbitantly expensive. There was a great deal of gentrification of parts of Boston that had been low income. The rate of vacancy in rental housing was estimated at one percent, which meant that actually there wasn’t any. So that there were many, many families who were either doubled up with relatives or friends in horrible circumstances or actually living on the streets. We had one very beautiful young woman who came to us who was unmarried and had a child about 18 months old when she came to our house. When I asked her how long she had been homeless, she told us she had been homeless since she left the hospital with the baby. I said, “What did you do with a newborn baby and no place to go?” She said, “Oh, I left her here and there.” We had another woman who had two small children who was in somewhat the same straights. She used to leave her children at McDonald’s. She would go in and buy food and then leave them there and go about whatever business she had. One of the problems with being homeless is that, at the time, it was very hard for people to get welfare if they were homeless because the welfare system in its wisdom wouldn’t give them rent money because they were homeless and therefore they didn’t have to pay rent! So they ended up with literally nothing. To negotiate the ins and outs of welfare is a full-time job. These were the sorts of people that were referred to us. What happened was that we came to know the workers in the welfare department, and they would refer people to us that they were not able to help. So it was the lowest aspect of the welfare system were the people who were referred to us, and they were treated in exactly that way, as the lowest kind of human being. Sojourner House was a residential shelter in that we stayed open all the time. Nobody had to leave at 8 o’clock in the morning or anything like that because they were children, or the vast majority. We could only accommodate only six families at a time. We had part of a very old large old rectory, St. Joseph’s in Roxbury. People had all their meals there. When we finally managed to help them to get on welfare, they would give us a portion of their welfare money, which we banked for them so that they would have some kind of seed money when they were finally able to find a place to live. Our hope was that people would stay about three months, but it ended up that they had to stay six months or more because of the shortage of rental housing. I went from Sojourner House in Boston to Syracuse and really didn’t find a niche in Syracuse either. I lived in Syracuse and commuted to Cortland [New York], which is about 25 miles south of Syracuse and worked in a soup kitchen. I was part-time for the soup kitten and part-time for Catholic Charities food pantry. That was satisfying, but it was sort of a comedown from Sojourner House because it wasn’t as – nothing was as acute as the homelessness that gave rise to Sojourner House. 5 �Is Sojourner House still functioning? Sojourner House is still functioning. There are no Sisters or priests involved in the administration any more. It’s become totally lay. It’s independent. We incorporated, so it’s Sojourner House, Inc., and it’s independent. As far as I know it’s still functioning. I haven’t had any contact there in three or four years. I stayed at Cortland for about six years. The soup kitchen was in the Episcopalian Church in Cortland and I was fortunate enough to become very good friends with the rector of the Church and his wife [The soup kitchen was called “Loaves and Fishes.” It was located at “Grace & Holy Spirit Episcopal Church.” The rector of the church was Rev. William James Greer II]. They were very, very dear people. One of the high points of my stay in Cortland was that we formed an ecumenical prayer group. There was a Lutheran minister, a bachelor, and myself, and for a while one of the priests of St. Mary’s Parish in Cortland, and a few other people. We tried to meet once a month for an hour’s prayer session, which was very delightful because we all came from such different prospectives and were able to pray together and talk together in very intimate ways. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wheeler, Sister Elaine, D.C. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hill, Sister Dorothy Marie, D.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:34:11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hill, Sr. Dorothy Marie, D.C. Oral History [Excerpt] Subject The topic of the resource Hill, Sr. Dorothy Marie, D.C.; Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul; Church and social problems--Catholic Church--History--20th century; Homelessness--Religious aspects Description An account of the resource Sister Dorothy Marie Hill describes the changes that took place in the Catholic Chuch and the Daughters of Charity after the Second Vatican Council and her work combatting houselessness in South Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hill, Sr. Dorothy Marie, D.C.; Wheeler, Sr. Elaine, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity Archives, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003/08/26 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Armater, Elissa (Transcriber); Keefer, Scott (editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication.ÿ Contact archvies staff for appropriate forms and contact information Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3; Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hill, Sister Dorothy Marie Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1951-2003 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Social Service https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/35463252038943ca2a4531d6977fc458.PNG 09e1ec28fd69a75dd62f621027604071 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/af4815eef8b8903abfc9fe9352436bf3.pdf ed9a084e8c32c85842c249c7bae48e3e PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Rose Dolores Hoffelmeyer Transcribed January 18, 2021 RDH: Today is a national holiday, and so I'm taking advantage of this feast of Saint Rose of Lima in order to send this tape message to you. Sister Regina returns to the states tomorrow for meetings with the council and also for a visit with her family. And since she's going to San Diego to visit her brother who is sick, she offered to take something back to Bernice. And I thought, "Well, what can I send?" I've sent ceramics, I've given things that are golden, and --I don't know what else-- and things of silver. And so I thought, well, maybe she would just like to have a conversation with me, although it's going to be one-sided. I hope that I don't bore you too much. What I thought I might do is share with you a little bit of the place in which I work and am working right now, and some of the activities of the sisters with whom I work. And because last year was such a hectic year in so many ways and really historical for our community here, especially the community here in Santa Julia, and I just finished typing a long report of the year, a history of the year for the community. I thought maybe you too would like to hear some of what went on here. It's all past history now, and so I feel a little bit more free to talk about some of the things that happened. [00:01:34] I'm living and working here in Piura, which is the third largest city in Peru. Although it's a little over half a million people, the city itself and the barrios that surround it, this seems like nothing in comparison with Lima, for instance, which is the grandest city or the biggest city in Peru, and has some 18 million people in it today--in it and the barrios that surround it. But nevertheless, Piura, although it is a pretty good sized city, retains much of the flavor and the feel of a smaller city. Much of its population has come in the last 10-15 years, when many of the people from the Sierra have come to the coast looking for a better life. Unfortunately, they don't find much of a better life, but at least it's warmer and they can still subsist. Although, in this terrible economic crisis, it's very difficult for them. Many of them live in the surrounding area, as some of you saw in the television program that Francis told me about. Many of them live in straw huts or huts made of woven mats of straw. And this is the first stage, they invade a section of the terrain around the city and lay claim to the land. Sometimes they're driven off by the police, but that's more common in Lima than it has been here. If they can maintain their time there, I think it's for a year and are not driven off then they can lay claim legitimately to the land. And they begin to improve their house little by little as they can. [00:03:38] One of the places that I work, it's in a pueblo joven, or in a barrio in the northern part of the city—on the way out of the city—the last one on the route to Chulacanas. I passed it many times before when I was working in Chalaco, and of course never entered, but this area is one of the sections that has grown up in the last 17 years. Many our family members or close relations that have come close together, they go in and and set up their little houses, and then little by little �they improve them. One of the families that I've come to know quite well and that maybe may have a couple of daughters that will eventually enter the community and are working with me as catechists right now, this family had been living in Callao, which is the port city of Lima, had apparently had a pretty nice house, and the man had permanent work. But because his mother was alone and had responsibilities for a granddaughter, when the mother had died and the father kind of disappeared, this family opted to leave everything they had there in Lima and come back to this part of the country. They're living there in this little house, which is still constructed of many different things. Part of it is a brick. [00:05:32] The reason I stopped the tape for a minute is that the garbage truck was passing by. And you could probably hear the clanging of the bell as it approached and knew it would be very distracting, if nothing else. As it got closer to the house, as I was saying, this family lives in this house constructed of cartons, of boxes of refrigerators or whatever, of brick. It has pieces of tela that serve to divide the different rooms. And this is a better house than many of the people have to live in. They're improving their situation a little bit. The man has worked. He is a kind of traveling salesman. I don't know exactly what he is selling, but I know that he accosted me one day when I was in the Mercado as he was entering the stores taking orders for something or other. And so this family has improved their house little by little and added portions on to it. Many of them started out with just one little room in one little shack, and that's how they grow. What impresses me of this family is their interest in getting an education for their children. I think that's pretty true of many of their families. It's discouraging for us, because we know that many of them, even though they get a better education, would not be able to get better jobs. But when I was in the house most recently, one of the curtains was open between the little sala, or sitting room that you enter, and the next room, and I could see that they have a bookcase with at least part of a set of encyclopedias and some dictionaries and other things. They help their children. They have three who have graduated from high school now, the boy is studying in a tecnico, and the oldest girl really would like to enter the community. Was talking with us yesterday about it. And the second girl who just finished her high school last year, had earlier asked me if it would be possible to have some kind of experience with us. She has visited in the house before, and we're sending her this Wednesday for a three month experience in the center of formation in Chulacanas. Hopefully, she too will make her decision for whatever state of life that she wants to follow. This course in Chulacanas is geared to help them know more about the three states of mind and to improve their sense of dignity as women in the church. [00:08:52] It was interesting for me last week when I went to visit the the priest who is in charge of this pueblos jovenes in the northern part of the city. And his parish is in one of the wealthier sections of the city called Miraflores. He really discounts the Catholics of that section, even though they come to mass, have the children baptized and so on. But aside from that, they really don't make any contribution to the church and don't have any desire to work in the programs of the church. And he has a great belief great interest in the people of the pueblos jovenes, but he's really �divided because he has his parish. He's also a chaplain of the huge hospital of the state. He also has one to at least four or five of these pueblos jovenes, and then he goes out into Campo with his catechists to sections to help teach the people who are living farther out. So, and he's not a young man. So, he's really divided. Yesterday he was telling the people at mass in Los Meninos that from now on, he would not be able to say mass every Sunday there. He would have to divide his time between there and Primavera, because the priest who had been helping him, the Jesuits who'd been helping him, had been moved from the city. And so he would try to offer mass at Los Merinos every other Sunday, except for those weeks when he had to give his time to marriage encounter programs. Or if, for instance, when the bishop is planning to come soon to visit his parish, he won't be able to come. And it turned out it will probably be another month before he visits Los Meninos. But when I was visiting with him, and I had a real sense of his confidence in the people in the barrios, what he was saying to me is, those people really have nothing but their faith, that they really cling to their faith, and they do more in spreading the word of God than these people here around my parish ever think of doing. And I can't count on these people for hardly anything. Sad, isn't it, but it's a testimony. He said, they have everything they want. And they don't have much interest in, in the people who don't have anything. [00:10:49] The Archdiocese of Piura y Tumbes is located here in the northern part of Peru, and has a population of close to one million in total. About two years ago, the Archbishop finally got an auxiliary bishop to help him with the work, especially in the area of Tumbes. And Monsignor Augusto lives there in Tumbes and is in charge mostly of the work there. The people in Piura, as in many parts of Latin America, although they're about 98% nominally Roman Catholic, suffer a great lack of faith formation and education in their faith. Of course, this is due in large part to the scarcity of priests and religious serving their needs. I read some time ago that about 60% of the religious working in Peru still are foreigners, and remember, I told you in Chulacanas that was very evident. There were about 14 different countries represented there. In this area, there's a great scarcity of priests. There are about 37 priests serving a population of, as I said, about a million people. And many of those priests are, are concentrated in in the cities. There are about 11 or 12 parishes here in Piura itself, in the city of Piura, and also a seminary, and although there are only about three priests who actually give their time almost completely to the work there, there are others who who are engaged in doubled ministries, teaching in the seminary, maybe acting as officials of the Caritas, which is the food distribution program that's International, but also have large parishes to take care of. Because of the lack of priests and religious to help the people, to instruct the people, and because of the terrible economic situation that has existed here in the country for some years now, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the evangelical groups are trying to take advantage of the absence of the clergy and religious and are coming in and just bombarding the people, often giving large sums of earth, large amounts of food, attracting them with programs, setting up mini factories or helping the people in various ways, all of which is very good. But it's also almost a means of buying them away from the traditional church. And because many of the people have faith that is rooted in knowledge, and because of �their great need, real need for food and for clothing, etc., many of them have turned to these sects and other religions that have come into that the territory. [00:15:15] There are many Catholics who want to help to combat this, as you know, I've been working with what is called an evangelization program. Evangelizacion Dos Mil, or Year 2000. But the people have been crying for help, information of their own faith, because they themselves often don't have sufficient knowledge to answer the questions of the Catholic faithful, were really incisive, bombarded by the Protestants that are coming in. So one of the things that I'm doing is working with a program that the Archbishop has mandated for the Catholics who really want to improve their knowledge of the faith. It's an interparochial program, to give instruction in the Bible and in the realities of the faith or the doctrines of the faith. We just started it about two weeks ago. And we're hoping that each year, we'll be able to add other courses. We have an outline that goes for three years. I think that will really be necessary, or I hope that it will be necessary, to repeat these two introductory courses that we're giving this year, this August, from August to December, that we'll be able to give these courses another time next year, so that the people who have heard about them now, and who want to enter them, will be able to start the program at that time. I don't think it will be too late. And since the first two courses this year are introductory, and we'll continue with the introductory courses for the New Testament, and also for other doctrines in the faith next year, I think if we repeat those four courses a number of times then we'll have a really strong base of Catholics who can help their parishes. And always the major problem in realizing a program like this is lack of money. Although we don't need much of it, we do need to pay the priest who are giving extra time in this program and help to pay for the electricity that we use at nights because, often enough, we have to depend upon a motor or a generator, because the light or electricity in the city is so unreliable. And the gasoline is very expensive. We want to buy Bibles, and the new catechisms. I have trouble lots of times going back and forth from English to Spanish. But we want to buy some of those books and sell them at minimal price to the people, so that they will have them in their hands when the priests are teaching them. And also so that they can use them as points of reference later on. [00:18:45] So, one of the things that we're doing is applying to programs in Germany and in some of the places in the States to help us to gain some funding. I'm going to use some of the money that Mary Ancilla sent this past December, and that I still have on hand to help buy some of those books. Eventually I'll be able to pay back most of that money. Although, depending on how much they cost, because the people who are coming often are people who either have retired from their work, or maybe are unemployed looking for work, but want to give their time and helping the church, or they're mothers of families who go out to evangelize on weekends. And they certainly don't have money, because they can hardly put food on their tables. So, you might want to keep that in your prayers, this program in your prayers if you would, so that we can do all that we can for Catholics who can help their fellow Catholics, and from there, help the church to stay strong among its people. [00:20:09] �Here in the house, I live with an interesting group of people. It's sometimes hard for us to gather together because of the diversity of the programs that we're engaged in. Janet and Ruth work in a program that is archdiocesan, Pastoral de Salud, it's an office that has been formed and is meant to help the people be trained in the basic principles of health. Janet had her year of sabbatical about three, four years ago, got an additional degree--she is a nurse--got an additional degree in international health, and so has contacts with international health programs and came back knowing very well that you can't practice the 20th or 21st century medicine of the United States here in Peru. She's a great advocate of natural medicine, and she has organized promontories de salud, or promoters of health, in almost all the parishes here in Piura, and in many of the parishes in the Archdiocese. She also is in charge of programs that work with the food kitchens in many of the smaller caserios, and some of the areas here in Piura itself. What else does she do? Also, this program is gaining some funding to help what they call small working programs. [00:22:06] One of the things that she and Ruth are really excited about is that a group of women in one of the really poor areas were able to find us here in Piura and have been trying, wanted desperately to have a panaderio, or bakery, so they could make bread for the area and sell it for as cheap as they could. And they got the money from the state so that they could buy an horno, oven, and fermentation, whatever you call it. It's a big container. And they bought--one of the women here in Piura that has a fabrico, or a factory, that works in metal helped them in making the stands, and tables, and things that they needed, and charged them cost value really for what they did. And she also helped him a lot transporting things in her truck. And so that program is off and running now. There are about 12 women who work in it, and they're now in the process of taking turns on a three shift basis. Some of them prepare the batter. Others come back after it's raised and form the bread and get it baked, and the others come in to do the selling and merchandising. That's been a successful program. One of the other programs is the taller, or the workshop, that makes those silver articles that I have sent to Bernice and Francis, and they have had success too. They now have a contract with somebody in Argentina who buys the silver products and sells them abroad. So that's off and running and is giving employment to eight or 10 men there. [00:24:19] ..like in two different areas where the men make brooms and sell them in the cities, have contracts with some of the different cities around about. So they will buy them for the people who clean the streets, and that's also a working project. To the east of us, near Sullana, where there is a lot of fruit grown, they have set up a workshop or a factory to make marmalade of different fruits. And I see that it's being sold in various stores here in the city. And I think their hope is to export it to other areas too. So these are very important projects, because although they each one only gets work to about eight or 10 persons, it's an incentive for other people to try and to set up some of their other programs too, and to see that it is possible for a group of people to come together and do something to help themselves and help the people around them. One of the �projects that was not successful, and the group had great hope for, was a carpintero, or a carpenter shop for young men in one of the barrios here in Piura. And they started out again with about eight or 10 young men, and they were able to help them by the first wood that they would need, and then they got funding from one of the state programs to construct the house or the brick building in which they would work, and to put the techo on, the roof on. And they worked through all that. They had a professional carpenter hired to to teach these eight or 10 young men the profession. But unfortunately, little by little they lost interest. One of the things that they started out to make as their principal project was to make coffins, wooden coffins. Because the high mortality rate, there's always a demand for these coffins. But they didn't have a good method of publicizing their work, and they had a whole succession of problems. The man who was hired to teach them got discouraged with them and quit his job. And then they got another carpenter, and he worked for a while with them, then he got discouraged with them, and then they had to get somebody else. And then there was a robbery, and some of the tools were stolen. And anyhow, it was kind of a disaster. There are only two of the young men left, and they're in another taller learning from two men who have set up their own taller. But Ruth was really discouraged with this project. [00:27:49] Because of the nature of their programs in this office of salud, the two of them, Ruth and Janet have to do a lot of follow up work. And they visit all of these groups of women and men who are promoters of health throughout the diocese once a month. So that takes a lot of time in itself. They also visit the talleres and try to give spirit and life to them. They helped organize retreats. That's what they're doing today in Tumbes, which is a good six to eight hour trip away from here. They'll return about the middle of the night to Piura, and hopefully they'll be able to get some rest. One of the things that I have said to them is they often work weekends and days like today which are very honest, that they don't really take their time off during the week following, and I think they're going to burn themselves out. [00:28:55] And as I've said, I work with the office of evangelization, helping to give some guidance to the Peruvians who were left in charge when our sister Elena Mack, who was the director of the program left last year when she was elected to our council in the United States. And so although I don't know much about the courses that they offer, I've only made two of them. They respect my advice, and I help with some of the planning and I have to hold down the prices because we don't have much money to operate on. Before Sister left, they had received a good sized grant from the German bishops for this program, and we have used up the first part of that money and have not yet received the second quarter. [00:30:02] These programs really have given life and spirit to many of the people, and it's these people in many of the parishes who are now asking for the courses to deepen their faith. Courses in the Bible, courses in doctrine, and things like that. But I think that the two programs work hand in hand, and so I feel good about that. The other Sisters and then also Peruvians, sister Trini, who is �a very good friend of mine, and who worked with me in Chalaco earlier, is a full time student in a school to train teachers, that kind of a normal school here in Peru. She's in her second part of her third year. It's been great joy for me to see her growth and to see how she has really taken a liking for her studies. Although they're really demanding, too. She also helps a little bit with catechesis, and on the weekends, she goes with me to Los Meninos sometimes, and she also works on Saturdays for an hour and a half or so in a program for young people in the parish of Santa Rosa. [00:31:28] Mabel is a young woman who is in her second year of vows and works as the person in charge of the catechetical program for First Communion in Santa Rosa and in the two barrios that are attached to it here in Santa Julio and also in Nueva Esperanza this year, she also opted to teach about nine hours a week, something like that, in one of the secondary schools. It's a great contrast for her because this school, whose name is Mater Admirabilis and has a large statue that those of us who went to convent of the Sacred Heart know very well. This school is in a rather rich section of the town. And the girls who are in it are pretty spoiled, and really hadn't had much training in their religion. The woman that Mabel succeeded as teacher there, teacher of religion, I think was teaching more psychology and I don't know what else but not very much religion or her version of religion, more than the real thing. So Mabel has had a pretty tough time there this year. Of course, the students have resisted her demands that they put in some time. And she's trying to get them interested in helping out in their parishes. And of course, they haven't ever had that kind of an experience. Pretty soon she's going to have a retreat for them. And she asked the Office of Evangelization to help her with that, so it will be interesting to see if that has any real results. [00:33:26] This year, we also have living with us right now, a novice who is in her year of experience. She is a technical nurse, not an RN, and was a little bit older when she entered the community. And she's also going to be working with Janet and Ruth for pastoral salud. So she just came the end of July, and will be with us until December. Hopefully she will make her vows in March. When I returned last year, one of the first things that Janet told me about was that she accepted in January, I think it was, to be secretary general of Caritas. The Archbishop had asked her to take charge of it because there were apparently a good many corrupt activities going on within that organization, and he wanted to do some housecleaning. First of all he wanted to make sure that some of the accusations he was hearing were true. So she accepted the charge. That led to various difficult situations for her. One of the things that happened to her was that on the 23rd of May, before I came back, she was picked up by the Police and taken for an interrogation, by the National Police of Peru. The charge was that she was involved in siphoning off some of the [inaudible] from a truck that was bringing them from Caritas in Lima to Caritas Peru that several of the bags of wheat had disappeared. Well, she, of course was not responsible, but they questioned her for two hours and denied her the presence of lawyer during that time, so it was a very scary experience for her. And that wasn't the end of it, of course. They brought suit against �her in the court of law. And that hung over her head, because it was constantly put off the trial, or the hearings were constantly put off. The lawyers that she was able to get didn't seem to afford her much help. Finally, our superior here, she went to see the bishop again, and one of the things that he said was that she needed to know that for sure the people who take positions of authority are always going to have to suffer. Well, she did have to suffer a lot and we suffered with her, the anxieties of that program. One of the things she said was that she'd never noted until then how many times the Bible makes references to the state to justice until that period of time, and that so many of her times of prayer, when she was using the Bible, she came across these references. [00:36:57] As you will know, the Sendero Luminoso or radical communist group, they have been trying to take over the country. They're very active and very violent in many parts of the country. Things have quieted down substantially since the capture of Abimael Guzman last September. But until that time, there was a lot of activity, increasing activity here in the Piura area. Right before I came back, the ex alcalde and a professor of Piura was murdered as he was leaving his classes one night. And this caused a great deal of consternation, there have been a number of police who were killed also. In July of last year, we ourselves here in the house began to notice that we seem to be under observance too. There is a football field or a soccer field across from us, and frequently, there seem to be people on the platform there, observing us at night, or as we walked to mass or came back. We felt like we were being observed by some people, some young people who were on the corners. So we always try to go two and two. About the middle of that month, or the 20th or thereabouts, we received some pamphlets or flyers inside of our gateway one morning urging us to observe the declared strike of the Sendero Luminoso for the 24th 25th, I think it was, of July. We, of course, didn't intend to do that. And many other people were not observing it either. [00:39:04] On the morning of the 25th, it was a Saturday morning, several of us were still in bed, gratefully, about 630 in the morning. But we were awakened very rapidly with the explosion of a handmade or a house made bomb at our gateway. Janet and Ruth we're having breakfast in the dining room and were protected from flying grass because of the walls that separated them. But often enough, some of them would have been emerging to go buy bread or something in the morning. The bomb, although it was a small one, was strong enough to blow out the windows in the two rooms that faced the plant in the first floor, and some of those where the door that opens onto the chapel area up above. One of the sisters called the other house on a walkie talkie. We don't have a telephone here in Santa Julio, and Regina brought back walkie talkie so that we can communicate between the two houses. And the sisters there called for the police to come. But afterwards we, at least I, really laughed about what we were doing. Almost immediately, Janet and I grabbed brooms and and Ruth to start cleaning up. We said it was such a typical North American attitude. We started cleaning up the glass and sweeping and cleaning in general. And the people who had gathered outside the wall in the gateway said, "Madres, don't clean that up, �the police will want to see how it was and they will they'll want to investigate all the parts of it." [00:41:03] We were all very grateful that nobody was hurt. And although it was a cause of tension for us in the next couple of months, because we didn't know if there would be another attack of some kind. And we took extra precautions when we were going out to try not to be out at night. And certainly if we, because we have to go to mass in Santa Rosa, which is about four or five blocks away, and come back together because it often is dark by the time we get back. We never knew exactly why the attack was directed against us, but I think most of us thought and still think that it was because Janet was still in charge of Caritas and that this program does a lot to help the poor. And Sendero has always tried to disrupt programs that try that serve the poor because they want to cause greater animosity or greater discomfort among the poor so that they will join them in their rebellion. Some other people thought that perhaps it was because Susanna, who was living with us at this time, was teaching in one that was teaching in a college, or a High School close by here in Santa Julio, and that the Sendero didn't like the influence that she was having with the young people because they were also struggling to try to gain their attention, to gain them as supporters of their cause. But whatever may have been the cause, it was it was certainly a cause of tension for all of us in the months that succeeded. And some kind of funny things happened. One night we were in the [inaudible], praying together, it was again a Saturday night, and we were sharing the scriptures. And somewhere in the vicinity in the street, somebody set off a discharge. It may have been like a firecracker which they use often enough for celebrations. Or it may have been somebody shooting a gun, who knows, but all of us dived for safety in one way or the other. [00:43:25] Nothing much more happened as far as we were concerned until September. As you all know, on September the 12th this Guzman was arrested by the police and so the President of the Republic had called for a national day of thanksgiving on the 24th of September, which is also the feast of Our Lady of Mercy. And had asked that Peruvians put out the Peruvian flag to demonstrate that it is the only flag that has a right to fly in Peru. So I bought material and we had made up a flag of the country. And that morning I put it on a standard flying from the balcony of the second story. Meanwhile, we'd planned to go to Ayabaca for a kind of past time and the sisters had planned that before I came back, but I had a bad cold and so I decided to stay at home because Ayabaca's a very cold area and I didn't want to travel for eight nine hours and then be in the cold and come back worse. So I was going to be here by myself and Maria was visiting from Chalaco at the time and she stayed with me, and the night of the 24th we went to mass in Nuevo Esperanza and when we returned to our surprise and horror we found some other pamphlets of Sendero inside of our gate. So she called Regina on the walkie talkie, and Regina called the police. And because she didn't have a car at the time, the other Sister was out in the barrios, working still with prayer groups. She asked the police to come by the house and pick us up so �that we wouldn't stay here overnight. But we waited and waited and nobody came, so finally she came in a taxi cab. We'd called a second time to say the police had not come. [00:45:33] Gratefully, nothing materialized from that warning. They were unhappy with us, of course, that we were participating or upholding the state, what they called the ancient regime. Kind of sounds like the French Revolution, doesn't it. Shortly after that, the group that works against terrorism, a place that was specially formed to work against terrorism, picked up a number of leaders of Sendero here in Piura and in the northern part of the country, including three from the barrios directly around us from Santa Julio and Nuevo Esperanza, one of whom was a professor and one of whom was a person who worked in an office where he had access to a mimeograph. And with that, really, things quieted down a great deal. Piura has had almost no activities of Sendero, although some of the outlying districts including some of the pueblos there close to Chalaco had seen activity of Sendero in recent months. But the police are slowly but surely doing a mop of activity. [00:46:52] One of our great concerns right now is that some of the people who are being accused of being Senderos are not guilty. In fact, one of the priests from the Archdiocese here is in the jail in one of the cities south and west of here, waiting trial accused of being a terrorist. His brother earlier had been picked up and accused. And the accusation against this priest is that... The mentality of the government, in this year is that anyone who even helps the families of those who are accused of terrorism are themselves terrorists. They call them members of the group. And they support or have help. And they picked up lawyers who have defended the rights of the people to have a fair trial. They have picked up teachers and others who have picked up collections to help families in need. This all makes for a very difficult situation, as you can imagine, because we all certainly want to see the terrorists picked up, but we also want to see justice done. The Office of peace and justice for the Archdiocese is very busy trying to help determine who seem to be innocent and trying to help to develop cases in support of them, but it's a very difficult job. Just the other day, the nephew of this Bishop of Tumbes was picked up in the headlines here in our papers and certainly in Lima, who was picked up in Lima as a terrorist. And of course, in the paper itself, it named the Bishop as his uncle... [00:49:03] ...and convicted of being a terrorist. But while he was in prison, this Bishop had denounced the government authorities for torturing him. And so it is a difficult situation in the country. I felt really badly for the bishop. They also thought maybe this publicity isn't all so bad because so many families are suffering like injustices, and at least they know that not even a bishop is immune to accusations or to calumny because of the activities of members of his family. [00:49:57] One of the things that has struck me as strange during the time of tension, and much more so now is that with all of this life goes on, almost as usual. We eat, we sleep, we work, the sun is �still shining, birds are still flying and singing. And it all makes for an atmosphere of unreality. Because we know that while everything seems to be very peaceful and quiet and going very well here, in some parts of the country, there was very great violence. Last week, there was an attack on some indigenous or Indian peoples of the Amazon area that had collaborated with the government. And Sendero killed about 58 of them, went from village to village. Now the federal forces or the state forces are in trying to capture them. And we know that there's a lot of injustice being done on both sides. One of the things that Peru is saying, in fact, de Cuellar, who was the Secretary General of the United Nations, is living back here right now, denounced Amnesty International, because they're always very quick to draw attention to injustices of the government but say almost nothing about what Sendero is doing. Janet, on the other hand, feels very strongly [inaudible] government and she suspects them of almost everything and so it makes a lot of uncertainty in the country. I'm sure that our views represent what's going on in a throughout the country. [00:52:10] Now I'd like to share with you one of the funnier story stories of the year. As I said, things go on, life continues regardless of what is going on in the political scene. And last year, in the end of September, the first part of October, Esther, who lived in Chalaco, was to be operated and was operated in the clinic of Roma, which is a private clinic here in Piura. And some of the sisters in Piura had decided to take turns staying nights with her because the clinic was understaffed. And this particular day of the first of October, Ruth left the house and went to the clinic. But as she got off the bus, she stepped into a pothole, of which there are a great many. She fell very hard, and was hardly able to get up but did so. And fortunately, there was a young man passing whom she knew. And she called him to give her some help. So first of all, she sat on a bench for a little bit. And then with his help, she walked to the clinic which was in the same block. There she asked the receptionist to go up to the second floor and to tell the persons who were staying with us there that there was a sister down below looking for them and they should come down. Julia, a novice, and Trini went downstairs and found Ruth suffering a great deal. She could hardly work and she had scraped her arm, but it was her hip that was bothering her the most. And of course she couldn't go upstairs. And so they call the other house and asked for one of the other sisters to come. So both Regina and Donna Jean went down, Donna Jean to stay with Esther and Regina to take Ruth to another clinic to see if they could find a doctor who would take care of her, examine her. [00:54:32] Regina went to look for a taxi. And you'd have to know the condition of many of the cars about right here. We all laughed one day when one of the taxistas said with horror that he had heard that they throw away cars in the United States. And that's true. The cars that they throw away up there many of them I'm sure land down here and keep on operating for some 10 years afterwards, or more. Well as Trini [inaudible], the car which they took that night was old. And it began to stop and start and didn't want to start up again, and the chauffeur got out of the car and put more gasoline, they often carry a gallon of gasoline in their trunk, put more gasoline into the car. But �still, the motor wouldn't start. Regina was really preoccupied that the clinic was going to close and so she decided to leave this car and go rapidly in another car. But she couldn't get out of the car because the door was stuck. And she was trying to push it open and was tugging at it with both hands and then the chauffeur got out. And he pulled on it from the outside. And finally she was able to get out of the car. And she got a motor taxi, like a like a rickshaw in the Orient only with a motorcycle that does a lot of work here in in the cities of Peru. And now she took one of these motor taxis to the other clinic and met the doctor as he was leaving his office and asked him if he would please wait because the sister was coming in the other car. And she explained what had happened. Well Trini and Julia also wanted to take another car, but the chauffeur kept insisting No, his car was going to start up and asking them to wait just a little bit more. And of course, it was very painful for Ruth to move in and out of cars. And so Julia, nevertheless left the car and went to look for another taxi. At the same time that she left the car, this old car started up and start moving. And Trini looked behind and here was Julia, who was a little heavy, running behind the car trying to get back into it. And I guess it was like a comedy. [00:57:07] Well, she did manage to get into the car. And when they arrived to San Miguel, they asked the chauffeur not to turn off his motor in case the medico had already left and Ruth wouldn't be able to go in. But Julia went inside, she saw Regina, and she said that the doctor had said to go to this other consultorio to have x-rays taken and that he would wait until they got back with them. So that's what they did. Fortunately, Ruth did not have any broken bones, and her hip wasn't broken but was badly bruised. And so he gave her some medicine and sent her to the house with a prescription to get a lot of rest and not to try to move out of there for several days. [00:57:57] We lost three North Americans last year, who returned to the United States. And so for the first time this year, with the entrance of two young women in August, on August 15 of this year, Peruvians outnumber the North Americans who are here in Peru. One of the sisters who went back celebrated her 60th anniversary as a religious this year. And she began to suffer problems with her back and arthritis in general with her knees. And so although she didn't want to go back, it was really better that she did so, and she's living at the Motherhouse now, but still going out somewhat. [00:58:54] One of the other sisters who went back was a younger person, younger than I, who came down just about two or three years ago and had been secretary for Mary Kathleen, before she came down. Anna had wanted to come to South America for a long time. And the community had asked her to stay on for quite a while in the United States. She was director of one of our high schools was director of Hogan when I was working as counselor. And later on she was director of one of the schools in Leavenworth. And then as I said she became Secretary for Kathleen. And that was a big sacrifice for her because she finally got permission from Mary Kevin to come down. And then when Kathleen was elected and the Sister who had served as Secretary for Mary Kevin died of cancer very shortly thereafter, Kathleen asked Anna to stay on. Well, Anna, �although she had wanted to come for so long, had a hard time adapting to the situation here in Peru. And Mary Kathleen really needed her still as secretary, and so she went back to reassume that position there. [01:00:20] And before that, maybe six months before that one of the other sisters who had been here for four or five years, also went back and is working with Spanish speaking people there in the States. The despedida, or the farewell party for Rose Celine was to be on the 23rd of January. And we had all been invited to come over to Negritos for the celebration, to say goodbye to her and to have dinner with the sisters there. As some of you know, one of the really sad things that happened for our house took place that day when four of us from Santa Julia got off the bus to go to Negritos. When we were walking to catch the other bus for that little trip, some one man came up to Trini and offered his sympathy to her. And she didn't know that her father had died early that morning, very suddenly, it appears to be a cerebral hemorrhage. And so she was shocked of course. Two the other sisters came by shortly after that with a car and Joan picked her up and took her to her family home. Maria was driving the small pickup truck from Piura. And she didn't know about her father's death until she arrived in Negritos. The rest of us went by the family home to offer sympathy, but then went on over to Negritos to, quote, celebrate. Of course, there was a pall over the celebration. And after we had dinner and had given our farewells to Rose Celine, we returned to the home of Trini. And the sisters came back two Piura that night because they, of course, hadn't brought clothing with them. I stayed on because I had planned to stay the weekend in Talara. The others returned the next day for the funeral. [01:02:48] Those are some of the highlights of the year past. And something of the environment and the situation in which I live. Hopefully it wasn't too boring for you. Bernice, I'm going to ask you, if you will, to take these two 60 minute tapes and make one 90 minute tape for Fran. And I don't know whether Mary might find it interesting to have a tape also, since she was so interested in one I did in Chalaco. And she has been very good in helping our mission since that time. I was so pleased to have the letter from Janice that she wrote there at your house. Gave me a little start I must say to find her writing a letter from your address when I hadn't heard from you for so long. Until I could open the letter I was really concerned that maybe something happened to you. But it's really glad that she took the time to write, and I'm going to drop her a note too. I love you all, and I'll be writing. Bye. � https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e30a2180fa13e74a421ee69ab377e46c.mp3 eac12bf904b1f892e90dd71f19c17281 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:01:36 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores, Letter from Piura, ca. 1980's Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Peru; Piura; Description An account of the resource Sister sends an audio letter home to Leavenworth from her time in Peru. She describes life in Piura, a small city, and some of the families she has met and worked with. She talks of her work with a program designed to help provide some religious education to the local Catholic community. She mentions other Sisters working in programs related to health, food kitchens, and helping locals start businesses or find employment. She also describes the challenges of working in this area. There were relatively few priests and religious for the land area and population served. Electricity was often unreliable, and there were times of political and civil unrest, notably leading to a small bomb left at the gates of their home. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980's Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Letter Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Early 1980's Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education foreign mission Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b90c4684cdf1a87030d199f21238f375.PNG 46a41d0b311df2ec8f9e0abc5ace94c9 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d411e2019c112e9662b727ac925d29db.mp3 ea2611fc68b75bb96856f7f3fc4d8bfe https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4ffdc043e100847e35d5cc77e6eecfd8.pdf 8dbd9716db7db931c18662eb6e26ca26 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 1 of 17 JK: This interview is with Sister Margaret Hogan. The interviewer is Jane Kenamore. We're at the Sisters of Charity Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas, and the date is June 26, 2017. Sister Margaret, where were you born and raised? [00:00:20] MH: I was born in Butte, Montana… JK: Oh, you were born in Butte. Ok. MH: …on December 10th, 1936, 12/10/36. JK: What was it like to grow up in Butte? [00:00:36] MH: One of the Sisters who grew up in Butte also, the other night we were saying what it privilege it was for us to have that Butte background, because it is one of great simplicity, but the people there are survivors and hardworking people, and we did learn the value of family, faith, and we learned how to work. JK: I'll get to the faith and work in a minute, but first can you tell us about your family, your parents and your siblings? [00:01:16] MH: My dad was a worker, was a laborer, worked in the mines for his entire life and provided well for our family and worked hard. My mother was a stay-at-home mom. And I often think of this in this day and age. I don't ever remember coming home from school, from grade school through high school, without having my mother there in the house. And I remember her saying when we were older, she said, "There were times when I wished my name was Mudd because with the five of you coming in the door and the first thing you'd be hollering, 'Mom, where are you?'" She just might be upstairs or folding laundry or doing something else. So, she was a wonderful woman as my dad was. They both worked together well and raised five children, three boys and two girls. And our faith life was very important to us. We were part of the Immaculate Conception Parish, and Mom and Dad lived there their entire married life, and they were both buried from there. And for me that's still my sacred spot. I know last December I celebrated my 80th birthday, and people kept on saying, "What do you want to do to celebrate? This is a significant birthday." And I just wanted it to be a quiet day. And, in the meantime, my nephew and his wife sent me a picture that had been photographed by one of her brothers, and it was of the church in the parish where I grew up. And I remember all day long, that was a very quiet day where I could sit and be grateful for my past and with a great deal of prayer for the future. And that church is still, for me, it's… JK: And it still is in existence? [00:03:38] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 2 of 17 MH: Oh, yes it is, and it's a magnificent structure. It was built many years ago. Probably I was at first grade, I think, maybe one of the first communion classes from there. But it still is just a very special place in my life and in the life of my family. JK: A couple of other Sisters grew up in Butte also, and I don't know if they were in the same parish as you, but they said the church was truly the center of their lives. MH: Yes. JK: They did everything. They socialized. They went to church. Everything was connected. Was it that way in your life? [00:04:26] MH: Oh, very much so. Very much so. I think that's one of the questions you asked about is significant Sisters in my life. And I think the Sister who was a BVM… Our school was taught by the Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the first eight grades. And they were very special people in my life. And when I was in high school I always belonged to their, what they called a sodality at that point. JK: And what was that? [00:04:55] MH: The Sisters were always a part of that. It was just coming together for socially and just a supportive group of people. And Sister Mary Maxine was my seventh grade teacher, and she is the one that I kept in touch with for many years, and then I kind of fell out of keeping in touch with her. And then one year when I was teaching in Topeka, Kansas I received a letter from her, and she must have found my address. And so we kept in touch for many years. She died just a couple years ago. And I was always sorry I didn't get back to her Mother House to see her because she was a real strong person in my life, a very quiet person, but very affirming and very supportive as was Sister Mary Seraphim who was the principal at our high school. And she was that quiet, elegant woman who was always there for me in high school years as well as in community years. Throughout my time in religious life she was always present and always there to talk to and sometimes challenged me in many ways. JK: Oh, really. How did she do that? [00:06:18] MH: Just to be my best self. JK: Ok. MH: Yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 3 of 17 JK: And Sister Mary Maxine—what would you say she gave to you? [00:06:26] MH: I would say presence, just being there and affirming me for who I was. Both of those women, I think, did the same thing for me. JK: Did you have contact with them when you were making your decision to become an SCL? [00:06:46] MH: You know my decision just flowed from the inner being. I was very fond of both communities and I always thought about entering the BVMs but never did because I never did finalize it. After I graduated from high school I was still young because I was a December birthday. So I decided to work and see where it all went. And nothing, you know, not that I had anything against the BVMs but it seemed like… I went down to see Sister Mary Seraphim one night and said I wanted to enter the community, and she said, "Well, all right, Margie, I'll send all your information to Dubuque." And I said, "No. I think I want to send it to Leavenworth." So, I said, "If you get everything ready then I'll be there in August." You know at that time we had to do our aprons and our long underwear and our slips and all those things, and she was able to do all the background and I showed up. And here I am 63 years later. JK: That's wonderful. What were your expectations of living in a religious community? [00:08:11] MH: You know I did not have expectations. I think the Lord has blessed me with being open to what is today. I just knew that I wanted to be of service in a different way. I had a wonderful year working after high school, but I just always felt there was something more and as I prayed not for a vocation or anything else… But, anyway, this—it just seemed to happen. JK: And what was your first mission? [00:08:48] MH: Blessed Sacrament in Kansas City, Missouri. JK: And what did you do? [00:08:52] MH: I was a teacher of third grade. And I followed that class, third grade, fourth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade for a couple of years. JK: Wow. And how many students did you have in the class? Was it a large class? [00:09:09] MH: Oh, there were times where there wasn't room in the classroom for a teacher's desk. JK: Oh, my gosh. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 4 of 17 MH: So, it was in those days when you had a full classroom, like 40 or 50 students. JK: How did you manage those students? [00:09:27] MH: I love teaching, and I found it a wonderful opportunity to help other people, to reach into other people's lives. And, you know, in those days it was fortunate to live with other Sisters who were crackerjack teachers. So, you always had assistance if you needed further assistance as to how to handle a class or how to teach a class. And those were the good old days where you had many people who were available. JK: Do you remember any one in particular who gave you the most help or gave you a good bit of help? [00:10:09] MH: Probably not so much in those days. It was just generally all of the Sisters who lived in that community, 'cause we had studied together and we had classes on Saturday that were always helpful. So, it was just lots of good help. JK: Oh, that's good. What did you like most about being an elementary school teacher? [00:10:44] MH: I was really blessed with good principals who taught me a great deal. Probably my last years in teaching were very… I still remember… Sister Lynn Casey was my principal in Topeka. And Lynn really taught me to believe in myself as a good teacher. She affirmed my gifts very strongly and challenged me to be my best self as far as teaching was concerned. And I remember one day sitting teaching, in fact, it was a religion class, and I remember sitting on a bench in front of… doing something. I thought I no longer have to work to prove myself. I am a good teacher. And that was a wonderful feeling for me because, I think, in the past I always thought I had to compete with this person or some other person to work to be your best self, 'cause I worked with some really good teachers. JK: What were the greatest challenges? [00:12:08] MH: Just to keep up with… (Laughs) Junior high students are not easy to keep up with, but I love that age level. And I think if they're with you, they're with you, and if they're against you, they're against you. And I always felt really… And I still love to work with junior high kids in our Religious Ed. programs. I always welcome that opportunity. JK: Did you teach all the subjects in junior high? [00:12:43] MH: For some years and then towards the end of my time in teaching in school I predominantly taught English and Literature or Religion, one of the others. Once I decided to move into looking into counseling in the elementary grades, because the longer I was in school the more I realized �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 5 of 17 there was a need for counseling in the elementary schools. And we didn't have any counselors at that time. JK: It wasn't a common thing… MH: No. JK: …back then. [00:13:21] MH: No. So, then I did part-time in the junior high teaching subject matter and then part-time working in counseling with the little people, and that was a great balance for me. It was kind of fun to be able to work with big kids as well as little kids. And I love teaching, and I think everything that I have done since then in my work, because I do a lot of work in parish ministry and retreat work and spiritual direction, but I have to say that the groundwork is teaching. And everything that I've done from that time on kind of has flowed from that experience. JK: What were the issues that you ran into in counseling? Where were you teaching when you went into counseling? [00:14:20] MH: Most Pure Heart in Topeka. JK: Oh, ok. And what were the issues that the children were dealing with? [00:14:28] MH: I think at that point just helping people to believe in themselves in their own personal dignity and self-concept always and then to work with parents on being consistent in how they handle children and teachers as well. Sometimes what a child would do on Monday may not begin to bother a teacher until Friday when they were tired. So, just to kind of work in that area of understanding why we do what we do and how we do it. JK: That's interesting. Did you ever have a teacher and a student together or a parent and a student together? [00:15:21] MH: Sometimes, yes. JK: Was that effective? [00:15:25] MH: Usually. I mean, yes. That's why you brought them together to help it be effective. Yes. JK: How long were you in counseling then? [00:15:40] MH: I have a degree in counseling in 1977, I think. So, I did the counseling in the school for probably three years, and then I did some counseling when I moved back to Montana in the junior high. But most of my work was in religion when I was at North Central in Butte. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 6 of 17 JK: Oh, ok. Let's back up. Not too long after you joined the SCLs Vatican II instituted many changes in religious practices and in life in general. Which changes did you welcome? [00:16:39] MH: You know I was very fortunate to be in parishes where Vatican II was brought in carefully, and we had the opportunity to study and to become a part of that process. So, for me it was not a negative experience at all. It was a learning experience. It was always growth-filled. And I had the opportunity to be a part of it, to be a part of the liturgical growth in our church. And I worked with some wonderful priests and Sisters and also made myself available to all the ongoing education that was happening at that time. So, it wasn't a negative experience for me. JK: No, no. Which changes did you welcome? What were some of the specific changes that meant the most? [00:17:42] MH: Oh, the changes in the liturgy especially. JK: In the liturgy. MH: Yes. JK: Like what, for instance? [00:17:46] MH: The Mass in English. The opportunity for lay people to be involved in liturgical planning, carrying out the ministries in the liturgy, the greater emphasis on the sacraments, especially the Sacrament of the Sick. Of course, I do a lot of work with hospital visiting and hospice work, and I feel like that sacrament is just so important in our life and sometimes we don't give it the attention that it needs to be given. JK: So, how was it less important prior to Vatican II? [00:18:27] MH: I think we saw the Sacrament of the Sick only given when you're really close to death. JK: Oh, I see. MH: And the Sacrament of the Sick now is given… You know I find people in our parish now, for instance, and in the past that if they're going into have surgery they invite their family and their close friends to come and celebrate that sacrament with them, and it gives them the courage and the health to move forward with a greater strength. JK: But some of these changes were difficult for some people to accept. What changes were more difficult to accept for some people, not for you? [00:19:19] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 7 of 17 MH: Well, I'm sure the changes in the liturgy were very difficult for some people. I know for my mom it was the greatest thing where she could take a hat off. I could just see her throwing it into the back of the car and she never had to put it on again. JK: (Laughs) That's right. Because everybody wore hats. [00:19:46] MH: Everybody wore hats, but my mother was very happy to take the hat off. JK: So, what were some other changes like that? [00:19:55] MH: I'd have to think a little bit harder. That was a humorous one that I can think of. JK: Right. That's good. That's good. So, your mom was happy with at least the hat change. (Laughs) [00:20:18] MH: My mother was… she loved everything about the church and the changes were welcome to her as well as to my dad. JK: So, she was probably a flexible person to begin with. [00:20:31] MH: Oh, yes. And people loved her and she loved them. And there was no judgment in her. JK: Oh, that's good. In the 1980s you moved into parish ministry. Where were you assigned, and what did you do? [00:20:53] MH: I'm still in parish ministry, and I moved to… I was in Butte from 1980 to 1983. And then 1983 I moved to the parish where I work now. JK: Oh, my goodness. MH: I work in a parish and I do home visiting. I do hospital visiting. I do spiritual direction. I do a little bit of everything. And the first year I came there the priest that I came with was a classmate of mine from… and we both moved in the same year in 1983. And so I worked with Father Ray Gilmore for 16 years, and then he left to take a new assignment, and then eventually died very quickly. And then Father Jack Darragh came, and he was in Hamilton for 12 years, and I worked with him for those 12 years. And, of course, if somebody's been there a long time you end up… They had not had a Sister before, so a lot of what was happening were things that I had developed. And then Father Darragh was there for 12 years and retired. And we have a priest there now, Father Jim Connor, who is there now. And I'm still there. JK: And you're still there. [00:22:24] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 8 of 17 MH: Yes. And I'm also a spiritual director and I've had the opportunity of being trained in Jesuit spirituality at Creighton University. So my master's is in Christian Spirituality with a retreat emphasis. So, several years after I was there, the parish, diocesan parish, but staffed by Jesuits, who were starting the spiritual exercises in everyday life, and they asked me if I would be willing to mentor some of their spiritual directors. So, I've been doing that for more than 20 years also. And I kind of have a day once a month that I either go into Missoula for the mentoring and on the days that I don't do that, on the Wednesdays that I don't do that, I work in our food pantry, which is also a wonderful opportunity 'cause I work with people who do a marvelous job, and they're all volunteer men and women. So, it's my outreach day. JK: Oh, that's good. MH: Yes. JK: Are there any other SCLs working in the same area as you? [00:23:48] MH: No. JK: No. So you're by yourself. MH: Sister Mary Jo Quinn lives in Missoula which is 44 miles from where I live, so we do get together often. And then there are Sisters in Helena and Butte. You know I've had some wonderful community experiences, and I know some of the questions come after that, but I have to say it now in case you don't ask it. When I had the opportunity to go to Hamilton I knew I would be living by myself which is not the most appealing thing in the world. But I could not have done it if I did not have such good community experiences and especially in Topeka and Butte and Kansas City. I really have a lot of affirmation and I have a lot of support. And I make great effort to keep in touch with our Sisters who live in the area as well as friends that are here in Kansas. So, I don't feel like I'm separated from community. JK: That's good. MH: Yes. JK: And then you have other connections in town, not Sisters but surely people that you have worked with for a long time. [00:25:09] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 9 of 17 MH: The lay people are just… I guess that's why I'm (inaudible) 33 years. They're marvelous people. And I think that's another thing the Vatican Council did for us. The lay people are able to do their part in the church. And we have a parish where they really do their part. JK: That's great. MH: Yes. JK: What have you enjoyed most about parish ministry? [00:25:37] MH: Oh, I think for me working with people and seeing their generosity not only in parish work but on hospital boards which I'm on. I've been on two of our hospital boards of the community. And seeing the generosity of those men and women who gather every month on a hospital board is just a profound experience. JK: What other specific experiences have you noted that have been really rewarding in parish ministry? [00:26:26] MH: Again, the Sacrament of the Sick has been extremely important to me, to be with people in their hospice days. We're seeing how much they hunger and thirst for that, even people who have been away from the church for a long time. The grace of that sacrament has touched me deeply. JK: Oh, that's good. Now, you work with the priests. Do they also…? [00:27:04] MH: They better. (Laughter) JK: Or is it mainly your job to visit the sick? [00:27:12] MH: I try to bring them into it. The first two were really… that was their gift, especially the second one. He's retired now, but he does hospital ministry better than anybody I've ever worked with. JK: Oh, really. MH: And if you called him at four o'clock in the morning he'd be there at 4:05. The present priest I think tries really hard and he does, but not as genuinely as I'd like to see it happen. (Laughter) JK: We won't tell anyone, especially him. [00:27:54] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 10 of 17 MH: You don't have to put that on that board. No, he's very good, but because I'm usually the first one at the hospital… But I make a real effort to be sure to include him in anything because we can't do that. But I can certainly see that this is the time where this person really needs that sacrament. So, no matter what time of the day it is, I do call and it's in God's hands once I've tried to… JK: If he's not able to come can you…? [00:28:40] MH: No. JK: You can't. MH: No. The Sacrament of the Sick is reserved to the priest. JK: Oh, not even in an emergency. [00:28:51] MH: Not even in an emergency. JK: Oh. Ok. So, that's one thing Vatican II forgot to do, right? [00:28:59] MH: You know I often think the more I've done this kind of work it's like it would be nice to be able to do that because there are times when… And Father's really good if I tell him somebody's there the present priest is someone… I'd say, Jim, so-and-so is in the hospital and I think this is really important that they have the Sacrament of the Sick. He will honor that, and I think just because I… I usually find myself going to our hospital every day, and because when you're there that long you know some of these people over the years. And I've been there since 1983, so. JK: Despite living a distance from the community you're very much a part of the community. How has it helped you over the years, especially in the years that you really have been living mostly separately from the community? [00:30:11] MH: I'm living in a dwelling that isn't part of a house, but I'd have to say I bet I have more community spirit than some living in houses with several people. That's a judgment on my part, I know. (Laughter) MH: I really do keep in touch with people and I welcome people to come. I live in a beautiful place, and I have access to some very nice places where people can come and retreat or relax or renew, whatever you want to call it. And the people are very generous in offering hospitality. So, I think it's been a two-way street for us. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 11 of 17 JK: That's good. So, you have friends in your area that offer hospitality to the Sisters? [00:31:11] MH: Yes. JK: Oh. That's nice. MH: It has been very nice and some very nice places as well. JK: Oh, really. That's even better. How is prayer reflected on the community and on yourself as well? [00:31:20] MH: You can't be a spiritual director if you're not willing to enter into the process yourself, so prayer is extremely important to me. Eucharist is extremely important to me, and there's seldom a day that I don't celebrate Eucharist in the parish. And I miss it when we don't have… you know if Father's away or something of that nature. But prayer is my life. JK: And what have you learned from living alone geographically? [00:32:19] MH: I know. I think the importance of being in touch. People can choose to live alone as a getaway. People can choose to live alone and yet not be lonely. And I think there are times where you have to… I don't feel that loneliness because I think I'm connected with other people, and I certainly avail myself to be with them. Whenever I've done some work with our deacons in their formation program and one of our Sisters worked… we both were a part of it, so that was a fun experience to go through those five years of preparation. But each month I met not only with the deacons and their wives but also with the Sister that was part of the process. And that was nice. JK: That's good. Can you give some specific examples of working with them? [00:33:31] MH: With the deacons? JK: Yes. MH: Oh, they were a tremendous group. We are so blessed in our diocese to have these last 20 men and women, and the women of course had to go through… not had. I mean they had to but they profited so much from the opportunities. And it's sort of like after being an eighth grade teacher for so long, I always feel so excited when I look up in the sanctuary at a big Chrism Mass or something and one of the deacons who was ordained from that group is one of the deacons at the Mass. I feel a certain sense of pride in them because I'm partially responsible. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 12 of 17 JK: That's right. Now, were the deacons some of whom can be, I mean, married right? [00:34:28] MH: Oh, yes. They're all married. JK: Was that a change with Vatican II or did that exist before? [00:34:34] MH: These are the (inaudible). I don't know how to explain it to you exactly. But before ordination to priesthood they go through a deacon, but these are not permanent. These are permanent deacons now, and they were already married before they… JK: Right. But they're going to be deacons forever. MH: Yes. JK: They're not going on into the priesthood. [00:35:00] MH: No. Oh, no. JK: That's what I understood. MH: No, no. JK: So, did the church always accept married deacons then? [00:35:12] MH: No. JK: They were going to be deacons permanently, not going into the priesthood. [00:35:17] MH: I don't know about the word "always" there, but we have had deacon formation in our diocese for a long time. JK: That has existed. I see. Ok, thank you. MH: But this group was a special group. JK: Oh good. MH: They were wonderful. JK: What have been the joys of being an SCL over your entire adult life? Would you have ever done anything differently? [00:35:47] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 13 of 17 MH: You know I've been blessed with the choice but I think it was up to God. Some doors closed and other doors opened, you know. My plans were never to go from being a teacher to a counselor to a spiritual director to an assistant in a parish. But God's been there and that's why. I never had any definite plans. I'm sure if I didn't follow that first call that my life would be different but I don't know how because I didn't choose another path. JK: What have you gained from being in the community even though geographically you're somewhat distanced from it? [00:36:38] MH: Oh, I've had a rich support and affirmation of who I am. I've been very well educated. I know that when I moved back to Montana one of the things that came to me as I was praying about this was I've had years of enrichment professionally, psychologically, but there was something within me that was calling me back to my rootedness in my faith life and I went back. My mom and dad were still alive and they weren't in illness so I didn't go back to take care of them, but it was wonderful being around them for those three years and just being present in their life. And I had a brother that lived in St. Louis, and so I used to see him more often when I was in this part of the country, but he died a couple of years ago. So I have three brothers. I have one brother now living and one sister living and her family and my brother's family. So, I still have lots of folks in Butte. JK: Oh, that's good. Have there been any challenges in living in the community? [00:38:08] MH: I've lived in some really good community experiences. They weren't always easy. We always had to think things… You know we lived in a… when you were going to be losing teachers in school and we had to go through discernment as to how to do this. They weren't always easy days but they were good days. JK: Thank you. In the 1950s, '40s and '50s, religious orders were huge. And today there are not as many women entering the orders. What do you think caused this change? [00:38:57] MH: Life. I don't know. I guess I don't worry about it so much. Of course I was part of a big group of people and there are still 11 or 12 of us in the community alive. Not all well but alive. And it's hard to say. You know when I read your question it's hard to diagnose that and to see where we are and what we're going to do about that. I think there's a need for a lot of creativity, and I think that's what our meetings this next week are about, to kind of look and see where we are and where we're going. But it's hard to know at this point. JK: Do you have any creative thoughts about it? [00:40:02] MH: I keep working at it. I'm in a study group with some really wonderful women, and we all are constantly trying to think creatively and future-oriented. But, again, I have to be grateful for the today. And I didn't know in 1955 that when I entered the community that we would be down �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 14 of 17 to the fewer numbers that we are today. But I guess there's always hope and there's always life, and we have some really good leadership and I trust their leadership. Those that have gone before us worked really hard and those that are with us today are still working really hard. JK: Yes, they are. (Laughs) MH: Yes. JK: No one retires as I can tell. What is the future of SCL as you see it? [00:41:23] MH: That's what I mean. I think you just have that hope that we know but we don't know. It's not clear. JK: Right. MH: And I think it's always there's a little bit of grieving of what we have to let go of and yet a little bit of hope for what is to come. But I'm sure Mother Xavier felt that same thing. JK: She probably did. MH: Yes. JK: She probably did. Do you have anything you'd like to add that we haven't talked about? [00:42:03] MH: I don't know. I just think that I have been well-nourished through family and friends, community, faith, the community that I serve now in the church, the opportunities that are mine to ministry. And I have so many opportunities. And I just pray for the grace to be able to respond to these opportunities. JK: Thank you so much. Frank, did you have any…? [00:42:37] FD: Actually I do have a question. JK: Ok. FD: You were talking about the Sacrament of the Sick, and was that… Sometimes we have sick members in our family, and I guess I'd be reluctant to use it because I'd think that they would think that, oh… I mean if it was before an operation they might think, oh… [00:43:00] MH: I'm going to die. FD: Right. Why are they doing this? They look at it as last rites. I'd be afraid to… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 15 of 17 MH: See, we used to call it that. We've learned that lesson, I mean, in our formation so well, so that we're reluctant. I remember a young woman and it wasn't too long ago. It was just last year in fact. She had a slight stroke and she was in the hospital. And she was afraid of the stroke and her husband was afraid. And I remember Father came in, and the family really wanted her to have the Sacrament of the Sick, especially her husband because he understood it. But I remember the fear on her face, 'cause her only experience of that sacrament was when her mother was dying. And she just had this… and I said, "No, Nance. No. It's ok. This is to help give you strength and healing, not that you're going to die. You're ok." But that is a fear, but we taught that. FD: That's the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, right? [00:44:22] MH: Actually that's changed a lot. Now it's called the Sacrament of the Sick. FD: Ok. It used to be called… MH: And so we used to call... the last rites. And if you noticed when you said can't you do that, the priest, because a lot of times that was so administered and that's when they also made a confession. See. JK: Oh, I see. MH: So, you gave the last rites. And people confessed their sins and then they had the Blessing of the Oils. When I see people who are going to surgery and they say, "Father, is it ok if we have the Sacrament of the Sick after Wednesday morning Mass because my prayer group will be here, and they have their family and their prayer group and it's such a healing experience. FD: Are you saying that you should have it before surgery or after? [00:45:20] MH: Yes, before. FD: Ok. MH: Yes. To give you the strength and the healing already. FD: Yes, I see. MH: I know for me it was really important. I had a slight stroke two years ago, and, thank God, I'm doing well, but it was scary. But it was so important to have that Sacrament of the Sick for me. And when Father came as soon as he heard I was in the hospital and he said, "Do you want the Sacrament of the Sick?" And I said, "Please." I can use any strength I can get right now. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 16 of 17 FD: Can you give that more than once? [00:46:07] MH: Yes, over and over again. Somebody will say to me, "I had that sacrament last month." And I say, "It's ok. Have it again." (Laughter) MH: The more strength we can get the better off we are. No, but we did… It was that last rites, and you were reluctant to call until you knew they just had ten more breaths left. FD: That's what happened to my father. [00:46:37] MH: No, I encourage people. This is a good time for you to have this sacrament before you're going in for your chemotherapy treatment. JK: Thank you. MH: If you have any other questions… I'm sorry if I rambled a lot. JK: No, you didn't ramble at all. MH: I did try to… JK: No. MH: I did try to read those questions but I thought I'm not a high school teacher. I have one experience with that. (Laughter) JK: I must have read that one experience in your mission card (phonetic). [00:47:14] MH: I had to laugh though. I taught junior high and I really loved that age level. And I was going to teach at North Central. I don't know if you've met Sister Anita Sullivan. She was another wonderful principal who I would like to mention. She was so good. But, anyway, they called me. I was directing a 30-day retreat in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. And Nits (phonetic) said, "Margie, I just have one question to ask you." She said they really do need a religion teacher, a theology teacher, for one sophomore class at the high school which is only a few blocks from where our junior high was. And she said, "Would you be willing to teach that class if we can arrange your schedule so that you can get there and back?" And I thought about it. And I thought, if not, why not? Why not me? So, I said yes to that. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 17 of 17 They were sophomores, and the other teacher, one of our Sisters, was not a very good disciplinarian. A wonderful person and they loved her. I mean they loved her. She used to play with the guitar in her hand and everything. I don't play guitar. And I expected sophomores to listen to me. And so I taught that whole year. But I'm telling you, I used to be in agony going up and down, 'cause I'd leave these wonderful junior high kids who loved theology and they loved religion and I'd go down to these kids. But you know you'd see them on the street and they'd say, "Hi, Sister Margaret." And on St. Patrick's Day they'd be out there at the parade hollering "Hi, Sister." But I said at the end of that year you're going to have to pay me big bucks if you want me to ever do that again or else I'll have to be full-time on that staff so that I can bring discipline to it. JK: So, what year was that? [00:49:26] MH: It would have been 1981. JK: Ok. So, it was after the '60s. MH: Yes. JK: There were a lot of changes that came about with kids. (Laughs) [00:49:39] MH: I'm telling you. But these kids, they will remind you that you taught me as a sophomore. And I thought, oh, dear God, don't remember. I remember asking the principal of the high school, I said, "Why don't you come and sit in my class? I want you to be there. I want you to see what I have to put up with." But it was a learning experience. I would not choose to teach sophomores ever again. JK: (Laughs) Ok. Thank you. MH: Thank you very much. I hope I didn't take your whole time. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hogan, S. Margaret Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:40:00 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hogan, S. Margaret, Oral History, 6/26/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Teaching; Parish Ministry; Vatican II Description An account of the resource She tells stories about growing up in Butte, Montana. She discusses her career in teaching in depth as well as her later parish work. She also speaks about her impressions of the changes from Vatican II. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hogan, S. Margaret; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/26/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hogan, S. Margaret; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1936-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e9045a29ce91e2cddfe87ea9011dbd84.pdf cff5969bec48f6770e248db7c6515a11 PDF Text Text 1 ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW OF SISTER MARY CLARE HUGHES, D.C. JUNE 17, 2019 CONDUCTED BY SISTER MAUREEN SCHMALZRIED, D.C. Transcribed July 9, 2019 by Scott Keefer Sister Mary Clare, Welcome. It’s good to have you with us today. I wonder if you could tell us something about your vocation story. Well I’m happy to be with you and to talk about the community rather than my vocation story, but I’ll tell you a little bit about how I came to the community. In the summer of [19]42, my sister said to me, “Clare, are you going to the community or not?” And I said “OK, do you have to know?” Well, she said, “if you’re going to the community, I’ll get married in August. If you’re not, I’ll have a Thanksgiving wedding.” Well, I said, “Kitty, maybe you’d better consider August.” So she was married August 29, and I left home on September 8. I already had one brother in the seminary and one other sister married, and shortly after I came to the community, two brothers were conscripted, and there was no one home with my mother. So if I hadn’t come that September of ’42, I don’t know when I might have come, or if I would have come. But anyway, I did come in September of ’42, and I postulated at old Mt. Hope [in Baltimore], and we had about 20-some other women postulating with me at Mt. Hope, and it was a great time. Getting used to living with more than your own family, getting used to living with the sisters day by day – because in high school we went home at the end of the day. We didn’t live with them-- Mt. Hope eventually became Seton, but when I was in postulatum, it was called Mt. Hope, so I should be referring to it as Mt. Hope. I left Mt. Hope to go to the seminary around December 2 of 1942, and my vocation date – the day I recorded as entering the community – is December 14, 1942. I was in the seminary ‘til January of ’44, and I was missioned to St. Joseph’s School, Martinsburg, West Virginia, and I was missioned to the third and fourth grade. Of course, I knew discipline was a problem, but Sister Imelda Maillette was a first and second grade teacher separated from me by a cloak room. So she helped me out, and gradually the discipline became possible for me. So you began as a teacher? I began as a teacher, but, in January of 1946 my Sister Servant received a call from Emmitsburg to ask me if I would consider entering nursing. Well, I had one time thought of nursing, so I couldn’t say no to the community, although I was very, very happy teaching and happy in Martinsburg. But as I say, I couldn’t say no. �2 So I left there within a week to come up to St. Joseph’s, because I was getting to the class in the College, and the second semester had already started. So that was the reason for my quick exit from Martinsburg. I had two other sister companions, Sister Annina Scharper and Sister – I think her name became Mary, I’m not sure – I knew her as Angelica Ahl, and the three of us went through nursing together. [note: Sister Angelica’s name became Sister Margaret] From the College, we went down to old Providence Hospital in Washington, D.C., and we had women companions in class with us, and they were delightful. We went through our basic nursing with some courses out at Catholic University, because we were matriculating for a Bachelor’s of Science in nursing, so the degree had to come from the Catholic University. It was called Providence Hospital’s School of Nursing at the Catholic University when I went there. As I finished my nursing program with my baccalaureate, Sister Isabelle [Toohey] asked me if I would continue and matriculate with my Master’s program, which I did do. So I didn’t leave Providence Hospital until January of ’51, at which time I was missioned to Jacksonville, Florida. On my first mission to Jacksonville, Florida, I was named Director of Nurses, and in those years, the Director of Nursing had both nursing service and nursing school, but of course I had an assistant in the school and an assistant in nursing service, but they were very happy years. I was a very young sister on that. There was only one other young one, Sister Jane Francis Fairley. All the other sisters were elderly and it so happened that the community asked me in May of – I’m not sure the year, but I’ll think of it later – if I would become the Sister Servant and administrator. Well, my father and mother had taught me obedience, so no matter how I felt about it I had to say yes. So I followed Sister Evelyn Roach as the administrator and Sister Servant. The sisters were delightful. They were just delightful. They supported me in many many ways. For instance, one sister was approached by one of the doctors, and he said, “Sister isn’t Sister very young to become the administrator?” And Sister Philomen [Scholl] said to him, “Doctor, Sister is older than the Queen of England.” She didn’t say by a couple weeks though. But that was the type of support I received and it was just delightful. That helped a lot, didn’t it? It was a great help, a great help. And I had others. Pauline Mitchell who was just a wit of our creation and so many other sisters. Of course, in those days, we had many more sisters assigned in the hospital. Unfortunately, they began to dwindle. I was administrator there for just two years when the community asked me if I would go to Saginaw, Michigan as the administrator because Sister Camilla, who had been the administrator there was chosen as our treasurer. So sister came to Emmitsburg, and I went from Jacksonville, Florida to Saginaw, Michigan in January, the coldest month. �3 When I got to Saginaw, all I could see was grey. It was grey outside. Everything inside was painted grey. It was just a grey situation. Sister Constantia Clark was assigned to help me in Saginaw the construction being done when I went there. She also thought it was too grey for everybody, so when it came to painting our refectory, we had three grey walls and one coral wall, and it just made all the difference in the world in our lives, because three times a day we had the benefit of that brightness and looking at our sisters in a very bright way. So we loved it, and I loved it, and I loved Saginaw. Another advantage, one block away was St. Vincent’s Home. So we had another community of sisters nearby, and that was delightful. They came over every Sunday morning for the second mass. Those were the years when we had a second mass on Sunday, and then we went back to St. Vincent’s to have breakfast with them. It was just such a comradery, and we looked forward to those weekends, and they looked forward to our coming over to their house. Nice community time. It was a beautiful community time. I received word, however, after two years in Saginaw that I was going to be missioned here to the Provincial House, and I was going to be a member of the Council. Sister Eleanor [McNabb] had just been made Visitatrix in August. In January, I was missioned from Saginaw – you’ll note that was two years exactly that I was in Saginaw – and Sister Marie Daly happened to be in Saginaw when I left. So we drove down to get a train in Detroit, and as we drove down to Detroit, we listened to the takeoff of [Alan] Shepherd going out into outer space. So I always remember that astronaut’s feat in relation to when I left Saginaw. What a memory! Then I came here to Emmitsburg and found out that I was going to be acting as the assistant to Sister Eleanor, which I thought would never going to work out, that I didn’t have enough experience, that I wasn’t old enough. However, God was very generous in his graces, and his sisters again-- the support, they practically carried me along. I couldn’t help but do OK. I don’t know that I did well, but I did OK. I remained here, believe it or not—I think I was here 21 years, 12 years as assistant to Sister Eleanor and nine years as Visitatrix. So that totals I think 21 years. In those 21 years, many things happened as far as community and vocation is concerned, and I’ll bring them up as we talk a little bit more, like the canonization of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the beginning and continuation of general assemblies in the community. It was a great grace to be at the first one. We had one that was scheduled for two years in a row over Christmas and New Year. It was I think 1968 to 1969. The Perfectae Caritatis indicated that all communities must have assemblies and elect their general superiors. Well we were already electing our General Superiors by the Sister Servants of Paris. But with the new constitution, that election was designated to be carried out by the general assembly. �4 During the 21 years that I was here at Emmitsburg at that time, many, many major events took place, and I was very blessed to be here for those particular events. For instance, we closed the [St. Joseph] College. That wasn’t a fortuitous event, but it was a historical one, and it occurred in 1973, but there were other community events that were even more historical that I shared in, such as going to the general assembly. That only could be an experience that I wish every Daughter of Charity could in her lifetime experience. It is such a community event that—it’s just almost unbelievable to tell somebody when you think that there is a Visitatrix and one or two delegates from every province in the world participating in that meeting, and you just realize the depth of community experience that’s there and the love of the community as expressed by those members of the general assembly and how for the sake of the community they worked hours and hours into the evening and early morning hours to get the best in our constitutions so that our community could have the strongest community life in order that we would take care of the poorest of the poor. And oh! Some of those sisters lived in such poor countries. To hear the representatives from Madagascar and Mozambique speak, it was wonderful for we Americans to learn from them exactly how they took care of the poor. It encouraged us, motivated us to come back to our country, our United States of America, and do even more for the poor if that were possible. It was just such an experience of service of the poor as we experienced an even wider community living among the members of the assembly, and we were doing that to strengthen our community life, our prayer life, for the service of the poor. What a grace! Such a wonderful privilege and such a wonderful, wonderful grace! The assembly started in Rome because that’s where the Church asked us to start. But guess what. The mayor of Rome had all these religious communities moving into Rome, and we were tax-free. So he went to the Holy Father and asked that the Church stop asking the communities to have their headquarters in Rome because he needed more tax money, and we were coming in and coming in, but not taxable. How interesting! In the summer of 1946, I was home here at St. Joseph’s for summer courses, and Mother Antoinette Blanchot was elected during that summer. She stopped here at Emmitsburg, so we had an opportunity to meet her, and what a fortunate occasion that was because we all became fascinated with her writings as she took office in Paris. It was just a great gift to have met her on the way to Paris. That was special. �5 I came to Emmitsburg from Saginaw in January of 1952, and I do think I’ve mentioned this before, but I was here for the exhumation of the remains of Elizabeth Seton, which took place on October 26, 1962. For those of us who have never been present for one, I was very taken with the strict legality of it. We all had to take oaths that we would not touch anything, that we would not move anything, and we kind of stayed in the same position all during the exhumation. And when the two pathologists took the bones of Elizabeth from the coffin that she was in and laid them out on—I would say a door, it was a long board—they put all the bones out to identify them, and they identified them by her height and other indications that they – the professionals – knew but I didn’t know. One of the things they told all of us was that one of the phalanxes of one of the toes of Elizabeth Seton was missing, and they could not go on without that. So we all were quite concerned that this would throw off the process of the beatification, but fortunately one of the secretaries remembered that there was a relic of Elizabeth Seton in the safe of the Visitarix’s office. So we waited while she went and got that phalanx, and that pathologist verified that it was the missing phalanx of the toe and then they verified that it was a completed skeletal remains of Elizabeth Seton. What a privilege that was. Was any of the clothing left? You know, I don’t remember whether any of the clothing was left, but if it were, it would have been just pieces of clothing. I would have remembered if it were a dress or a cape or her cap, but I do not remember that. All I remember was the dust and the bones and the little coffin. I came to Emmitsburg in January of 1962 and was named, God help me, Provincial assistant to Sister Eleanor McNabb. Of course, because I was assistant, I had opportunities for which I am most grateful and which I thank God every day that they were available to me. I was present for the beatification of Elizabeth Ann Seton on March 17, 1963, and that was the last official act of Saint John XXIII. Of course he was not Saint then, he was John XXIII. But we could tell even then that he was not well. You could tell it from his eyes, the dark, dark, dark circles of his eyes. But it was such a glorious occasion. We who were there had to thank the many, many sisters, college graduates, friends of the community who had worked so hard for Elizabeth’s beatification. They had had all types of petitions signed and sent to Rome, and it was they that should have been fortunate enough to be there. But we tried to represent them by expressing our gratitude to them to Elizabeth on that special occasion. In December of 1963, Mother Guillemin visited Emmitsburg. I should know much more about that visit. But unfortunately, at this point, I remember just the highlights. One of the highlights was Mother wanted to see the lights of New York. That amazed me because I know the city of Paris is called the City of Lights, but she wanted to see New York. So we went to New York in the early evening. We crossed all the bridges of New York so that Mother Guillemin would have a good look at New York City from different vantage points. The next day we took her to view the windows so she could see the windows along Fifth Avenue that were fixed for Christmas, �6 and of course, we took her in to Saks Fifth Avenue so that she could see the decorations. But you know right well we didn’t buy anything at Saks Fifth Avenue. And of course, Mother didn’t know what Saks Fifth Avenue was, but the decorations were glorious to view, and we were happy that we were able to show them to Mother Guillemin. And she was happy to see them. Oh, I’m sure she was happy to see them. Of course, there are two very particular occasions that occurred later in the month of September of 1964, and the first one was the change of the habit. And if I recall correctly, it was September 12, and, miraculously, the whole world changed on December [correction: September] 12, whenever that date was in their country. Because Father Slattery and Mother Guillemin had gone to Spain because the Spanish sisters would be the ones that would gave up the most in changing the habit, since they had had—even while we wore the cornette, they wore a different headpiece. But Father and Mother asked them if they would change, and they agreed to change. So the whole world changed on that date of September 12. We’ve had to be very grateful. So they agreed to go along with it, and that’s why everyone was so grateful. They agreed, and they changed. It’s remarkable, I was here at the Provincial House, and we were a much larger group of sisters here then than we are now that it went so smoothly. But one sister, after mass, went back upstairs and took off her new coif and put on her cornette and went about her daily chores. One of the workmen saw her and immediately got in touch with another sister to tell her that Sister Frances Miller had changed back into the old habit. So the sister explained to her that we would no longer change after mass and put on a different coif or a different cornette, because in the old days that’s what we did. We wore a special a apron and a special cornette to mass and holy communion and after breakfast. We changed them, and that’s what Sister Frances did. She was just keeping with tradition. But it was wonderful that everyone was able to change throughout the world. And of course you know, as everybody does, that the coif changed quite quickly. I don’t remember the date that we got word that the white wouldn’t curl underneath the blue as we first did it and it was straighter and looked much more finished and tailored. But everybody... it’s remarkable, the simplicity that was manifested in that change. All regretted losing the cornette because it was so widely known and we received it when we received the habit. But everyone was so simple in accepting the decision to change the habit, and, as we all remember, it was recommended by the Second Vatican Council. And I was just so amazed and full of thanksgiving that that change went as well as it did. It was all grace. Grace through and through. �7 Later that same month of September, the 20th to be exact, I think only something like eight days, a week and a day, another enormous change took place for all the sisters here in Emmitsburg, and that was our move from the old Provincial House to the new Provincial House. Remember, that was two gigantic changes for the sisters in this mission, because they were primarily the older sisters of the province, the older ones who were here because they could no longer manage steps or some of the physical conditions on the missions, or they were in the infirmary. We had a great number of sisters here, but they accepted that change so beautifully. The sisters came in from the missions to help walk with the sisters, or if they needed to be driven down to the new provincial house, they went along with them. In essence, it became a bit of excitement instead of a chore. It became almost a celebration, and that helped to make everybody so accepting and so grateful, because when they saw the new provincial house and all the amenities it had provided each one of us, we couldn’t help but be grateful. It was beautiful. It was beautiful, there’s no doubt about it. Of course, as you recall, we didn’t have the basilica for many, many, many months. The chapel was in the large room beneath the basilica, which was not divided up as it is now, it was just a large auditorium at that period. The alter was on the stage, but as I approached that chapel one morning, that’s when I became aware of the difference in our habit. I entered those three little steps down into what is now the museum of the basilica, and you saw nothing but the dark, dark, dark headpieces, which you didn’t see upstairs because the sisters weren’t in rows next to one another. But down there we had to sit in rows in order to fit ourselves in, and it was the area where I was very aware of the difference in the habit. But again, that was just a feeling, and I could thank God that the change went well, and it was better for everybody that we had change. I remember people saying how dark everything was because we were used to seeing the white cornette and the white collar in the back, and it was all dark blue. Yes, it was very, very dark And just another P.S., I was a postulant in 1964, and we could not wait to get into the basilica, which we called the big chapel. And we decided we would be in for Christmas, and Christmas came and went and we did not get in it. So we finally went in it on January 16, 1965, and we declared, that must be Christmas. I think that’s very important that it be known and recognized that we really didn’t move in ‘til ’65. January 16, that date sticks into my mind. And the crucifix had a corpus on both sides. That’s right. The large crucifix over the alter had a corpus on either side of the cross. Later, I’d say maybe a year or so, might have been earlier, someone pointed out that that was not �8 liturgically correct, that we just had the corpus on the side of the cross that the congregation viewed. So the figure on the reverse side of the cross was removed, and I have to say I don’t know where it went or what happened to it. But it was a gorgeous figure, but unfortunately... I’m sure some church has it now. Someone told me that they gave it to some church. I don’t know which one it was. I’m sure it was given to a church, but I’m not sure which one at the moment. Another momentous occasion arose during my years up here, and that was the establishment of the domestic, provincial, and general assemblies, and it was so edifying – and that’s the word that meant the most to me, it means the most to me right now – it was edifying to see how everyone in this facility entered into that preparation. Because those of us who were in the community at that time remember we had to fill in little blocks along the edges of all the papers, and that was a bit hard for fingers that were arthritic or old, but the sisters entered into that very, very industriously. And they wanted to share, because this was the community’s future, they wanted to share in those questions, and knew that their questions would represent them at the assembly. So they worked very hard on those first questionnaires. It was wonderful to see. And then of course, after those went to Paris, we entered into our first provincial assembly, and that was held in what is now the Shrine. It was the large space under the big chapel as it was called then. It was not yet known as the basilica, and that assembly was held in that room. And we do have pictures to go along with this, I know. But the table was up front, and at the table sat Sister Eleanor and Father [Charles] O’Connor, and, I’m pretty sure it was sister Mary Carol Eby was the secretary of the assembly. Although by constitution, it was probably the provincial secretary, so I think Mary Carol must be up there reporting, but I’ve seen a picture and reviewed it so often, and it shows Father and Sister Eleanor and Sister Mary Carol giving a report at the microphone, and I think that’s why her name immediately came to my mind. That room was filled because our province then comprised the whole Eastern seaboard, Ohio, and Michigan. So that room was filled. But at the election of delegates for the assembly during those days, Sister Hilda Gleason and myself were elected as delegates to the first international assembly. The reason I’m stressing the word international is that assemblies were held in the community before this, but they were only attended by the Sister Servants of Paris. And of course we had to remember that we had a couple hundred houses in Paris. So it was a large assembly, but it was limited to the particular geographical area. Again, by mandate of Perfectae Caritatis, our constitutions were looked at and updated and representation from all the provinces was indicated as the best way for all the Daughters of Charity to be represented at the general assembly. So it was with such anticipation that we went to that general assembly, and believe me, we took every Daughter of Charity with us, because we knew that we were only there as delegates it was emphasized. �9 Now, the Visitatrixes were ex officio, but the delegates were delegates elected by the provincial assemblies. So we were very conscious. It’s amazing, when you are elected, how conscious you are of being the representatives of those who elect you. But it was such unusually new experience for the delegates who were there. We learned how to accept and sit while somebody spoke in Portuguese, or somebody spoke in Spanish, or somebody spoke in Italian, or somebody spoke in French, or somebody spoke in English to be very mindful of what they were saying. And this was not as difficult as it sounds, because we had simultaneous translation. Every member of the assembly had simultaneous translation, and that was such a great benefit to each one of us, because no matter what the delegate or Visitatrix, no matter what language she spoke in, we got the translation in our own language. What a tremendous benefit that was. During the assembly, on August 11, 1968, Sister Hilda Gleason was elected a General Councillor, and that was a real privilege that she should come from our province. We know now that the holy spirit was behind our voting that day, because Sister Hilda, after her term as General Councillor, was missioned to Taiwan, as Vice-Visitatrix of Taiwan, and then later became the Visitatrix of Taiwan and served the community so admirably both as General Councillor going all over the world in that role and then establishing the community and similarly helping to establish the Church in Taiwan with such a tremendous role, and Sister filled it admirably well. Two of the Sisters in Taiwan under Sister Hilda were Sister Evelyn Frank and Sister Annina Scharper. Neither of them had any study in the Chinese language, so they were both named to go to the University, and they attended the University for two years and became, in that being together, great friends, and that friendship has endured to this day. When Sister Evelyn was Mother General, she had occasion to come here to the United States on business, and she always stopped to see Sisters Annina. It showed us that a happy friendship can exist in our community and remain very strong and loving and still be just such a boon to everybody around them, not just the two of them, because we shared in that friendship as well. It’s not my intention to give a chronological history in giving my autobiography, but as I relate community events, I think it’s important to name the date when something happened, or to give the date when something happened, so I am aware that as I mention what happened in my life, I am giving dates and just ask you to forgive that and understand why I’m doing it. We like to have dates. Oh good, we like to have dates, well that’s good. Mother Chiron came to Emmitsburg in January of 1969 for the erection of the five provinces of the United States. From the original two provinces, which were established in 1910, the St. Louis and the Emmitsburg province, were to be subdivided into five provinces. For that occasion, Mother Chiron came to Emmitsburg, as did the sisters, as many as could, from the other provinces to be present for that at the establishment of their new provinces. It was a wonderful occasion. �10 We know that the provinces of Los Altos Hills [California]; St. Louis, Missouri; Evansville, Indiana; Albany, New York; and Emmitsburg, Maryland were established in January of 1969. Many wonderful things occurred because of that division into those five provinces, and we see God’s hand in that because more Daughters were able to become acquainted with other aspects of their province, of their missions, of their ministries, and able to take greater part in it. We see that that was a wonderful event not just for the community, but for the Church, because we were better able to serve the poor through the division of the provinces. Of course, history has changed that, and we’ve reunited, but that is history. That’s what happens in history, but at the time of the division into the five provinces, there was an upsurge in interest in the community and a greater ability to serve the poor in our various missions of the five provinces, so it was a wonderful event. It was the right thing to do at that time. Right thing to do at that time. It was the right thing. A major change occurred for the Emmitsburg province in July of 1972 when the sisters of Villa St. Michael in Baltimore, Maryland moved here to the Emmitsburg campus, and that involved 133 sisters. I was on-deck for that, and it was so remarkable, and so enjoyable, and so edifying if I may still use that word to see how those sisters took that change. Now you remember, most of them would be in the 80s and 90s and some even in the 100s, but they came up here as delighted as they had been to go on their first mission, because it was something new for them, and it gave fresh views and fresh things to do to sisters who had been settled in their retirement in Emmitsburg. It was wonderful occasion for us who lived here as well as for those who were coming to join us in our community life here in Emmitsburg. Believe it or not, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, now Saint Teresa of Calcutta, visited Emmitsburg in October of 1975, and I have done a little bit of math on that, that was just the following month Mother Seton was canonized in September of ’75, and Mother Teresa came in October. And her reason—expressed reason for her visit was to visit the tomb of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton. It was an unusual visit in every sense of the word. The Council had to be the night before in Wheeling, West Virginia for the retirement festivities of Bishop Hodge Joseph Hodges [Joseph Howard Hodges]. He had been a product of our St. Joseph’s School in Martinsburg and had kept close to the community all through the years, so the Council was scheduled, and the people in Wheeling had bene notified that the entire Council would come. When we heard about Mother Teresa’s wish to come here, and her schedule wouldn’t allow for any changes, so we were in Wheeling ‘til about 11:30, and then we drove back to Emmitsburg, and I don’t think anybody who took that trip was in bed before 2:30 or 3:00, and Mother was due here at 8 in the morning. That’s the only time that her schedule would allow. But you know, it’s like everything else, if you turn it over to God, it works out well. We didn’t show too much fatigue that day, and Mother was bright eyed and so interested in anything we could share with her about Saint Elizabeth Ann. �11 She stayed through the dinner hour, and I can still see her standing by the mike, where you so often stand Maureen [addressing interviewer], just where that mike is now. She stood and talked to the entire community. And what did she talk about? She talked about love. How all of us need and appreciate loving and how anyone with whom we come in contact in our various apostolates, as they were called then, needs to be shown love. It was such a simple but effective message for every Daughter in that refectory, and we had to express our gratitude to Mother Teresa for that, because it was message that everyone valued, and it also showed Mother Teresa’s great sensitivity to any audience that she might be speaking with, and I think her visit brought great benefit to any of us who were present here for it. Recently, there was an anniversary of that visit, the 50th anniversary of that visit, and the pictures came up on the email on the iPhones, and one of my nieces told me that her son had pictures of Mother Teresa visiting Emmitsburg that day. They were on email; we had not put them there. So I think that maybe the Frederick Post would come that day to take pictures of Mother Teresa and seen that they got on the email for the 50th anniversary of her visit. Because to Frederick, that was a visit to Frederick County, not just to St. Joseph’s, Emmitsburg. Richard McCullen, our Superior General, visit Emmitsburg in 1982. His warmth, his wit, and his wisdom charmed all of us. Two stories associated with his visit are always in my mind. The first is that the five Visitatrixes came together with Father to receive council and to ask questions of him, and during that visit, the five Visitatrixes and Father went out to the Shrine of Saint Vincent on the grounds of the Provincial grounds because it was in a new setting, and Father was going to re-bless the statue. He did do that, and we were conscious during the blessing that there was a reporter there because she had her little pad and was making notes with what was occurring and what remarks Father might have made. But it surprised us because we finished the blessing, but the young lady cornered Father and kept him for quite amount of time, and we just stood off waiting for him to join us for our continuation of our meeting. However, it went to over half an hour. So the other Visitatrixes went inside, but I waited for Father. When the young lady finally left, he came to me and said “Sister, I’m sorry about that, but that was that young lady’s livelihood.” How conscious I was by that remark, that Father was always conscious of his service of the poor and showed his great compassion and understanding of other people. Another story that happened while Father was here. He was very busy during the day, so he went to see the Villa sisters after supper. Of course, many of them were already in bed, but that didn’t phase Father. He went from room to room, and he’d say to the Sister as he entered “Sister, would you care to receive my blessing?” and of course they’d say yes. We went into this one room, and he said that to the sister, and the sister said “Oh Father, I’d be happy to have your blessing.” And with that, she pulled her hands out from under the covers, and she had black woolen gloves on [holds hands together in front of her]. Of course, Father and I wanted to laugh, but we had to hold our mirth until we left sister, because it just showed her �12 great reverence for the blessing of God, particularly when it was given to us by our Superior General. That visit showed his great concern for every sister, because it wasn’t just the Visitatrixes he met with. He’d greet every sister, and if she wanted to stop, he’d stop. It just showed me a completely wonderful side of Father, just to see him in action, and his gift of sharing himself totally. He really gave himself completely. During that same time period, Jimmy Carter, the President of the United States, also visited the Shrine of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton. Accompanying him were his wife, Rosalyn, and her mother, his mother-in-law. After touring the Shrine and listening to a brief account of Elizabeth Ann Seton’s life, he was very relaxed, comfortable, enjoyed what he was seeing and hearing, and did not seem a bit hurried. As he was leaving, the sisters gathered around the front door, and he was there among us, and I mean among us because the Daughters surrounded him. As he left, he gave me an embrace, and that picture was picked up by many of the newspapers in our country, and circulated, but happily it was because he was at the Shrine of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton. That was special to have him visit wasn’t it? Oh, it was very special to have him visit. Rosalyn was very simple also, and the mother-in-law... She was part of the little party. They stood in the Shrine over by the alter of Elizabeth Ann Seton and just asked any questions and listened to our responses and anything we shared with them. It was a lesson for me in true simplicity. True simplicity. And I’m sure other sisters could tell you many other things about that visit of President Carter. But it was really a highlight of my years here in Emmitsburg. The President of the United States and the head of the Congregation of the Mission and the Daughters of Charity. I see them as two wonderful events in my time at Emmitsburg. I should have said this first. The day before our President came to the Provincial House, the FBI crawled all over our place. Every nook and cranny of the Basilica, the corridors that he was going to traverse, the lobby that he was going to enter in to, it was crawling with FBI men. But of course, the Daughters enjoyed it, because they saw what happens when you do have a person who is subject to all types of untoward people who might want to get a hold of him. They have to be very careful where he goes. We understood it, and we just enjoyed the FBI men. We would try to converse with them, but they were serious about they work. They didn’t really enter in. They were gentlemen, but they were about their business. Throughout my terms here in Emmitsburg, I was very much aware of the support I received from our Vincentian brothers, and that included believe it or not Father [William] Slattery, Father [James] Richardson, and Father McCullen during my terms. I was also here for other terms like Father [George Gregory] Gay’s, but it was after I was out of office that he came. However, Father Slattery was not only admired by we the Daughters of Charity of Emmitsburg and the United States. When we did go over to the assembly, we saw the respect, love, genuine appreciation of our French sisters for Father Slattery. �13 This is just a little aside, but you know when we changed the habit back in 1964, the whole world changed at the same time, because Mother Guillemin and Father Slattery went to Spain and asked the sisters of the two different habits there if they would change to the universal one, and they all agreed. So on that day of the change of habit, the whole world changed, and I just thought the pair of them, Sister Guillemin and Father Slattery could convince anybody to do what the Lord wanted us to do. Thank God for that. Yes, thank God for that. In addition to the generals that gave assistance to me, I have to be very aware of the Directors who shared their understanding, their knowledge of the community, their appreciation of what the Daughters of Charity were doing with me and what an assistance that was in my years, and I must particularly mention Father [Charles] O’Connor and Father [John] Cusack. I know they’re both in Heaven now, and I hope they’re praying for this province and the larger St. Louis province as it is now, because they really worked with us at the grassroots, and I think they can present our situation to God and get his adit. We always have God’s support, I’ve no doubt of that. But even more mindful they will make him of what we are doing down here, I’m sure. I cannot forget though that we also had the Brothers in town. At one point we had five priests at the priests’ house in town. They came over here for confessions. They came over here for all types of liturgies because the Shrine was fairly new at that time. We had many, many types of events and liturgies, and our Vincentian brothers were always on deck. You could count on them. We could have 15 bishops, but hidden behind those bishops were our dear C.M. brothers, and were they wonderful to us. I’ll have to tell almighty God how grateful I am for them. As I listen to myself, I keep hearing the word “thanksgiving,” and that’s a word I know I will always associate with my vocation, my years in Emmitsburg, my understanding and working with so many different wonderful sisters and priests, particularly our Superiors. There all owed a deep gratitude, but I’ll come back to that a little later. After I left the terms up here in Emmitsburg, I worked for a number of years in different apostolates. I was at Providence Hospital for two years, Jacksonville for another two, Bladensburg for two, and then in 2000, I was asked to assume the directorship of the Shrine of Saint Elizabeth Ann, and I filled that role to 2005. That made me so aware, as I was jotting those dates down of how my life here in Emmitsburg was so intertwined with that of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton, our American foundress, because I was here for her exhumation, her beatification, her canonization, her removal of relics from the College chapel to our Provincial House chapel, her removal relics from above the alter of the Provincial House chapel to where they are now in her little Shrine in our basilica. As the years passed, I saw what other Directors in the Shrine have done and how they have had so many different programs and booklets and occasions to invite the public and how we are �14 progressing in making Elizabeth Ann Seton known to more and more Catholics. It is, as I want to emphasize, the part of so many of our lay staff that are doing that. But the seed is growing. The seed if growing because so many come and are greeted so well by our staff of the Seton Shrine that many of them do return, and even return from distances. It is with great gratitude that I’m aware that that’s occurring. From the Shrine, I was assigned to the ministry of prayer in the Villa St. Michael, and I came here in January of 2006. What a tremendous missioning that was for me because being here at St. Michael’s Villa, has really been the zenith of my vocation. I am here among many wonderful Daughters of Charity who have had all types of experiences, all types of encounters with the poor, all types of experiences that they share with us, we share with one another, and it has been so enriching. I myself must say, I think my years at the Villa, as I remarked earlier, are the zenith of my vocation. It is such a grace and a blessing to be here among them. Here I celebrated my 75th year of vocation, and here, as I said, I live with such marvelous Daughters, and without trying, just being, there is a togetherness that is most unusual, and so affectionate, so caring, so supportive. I just think that God saved the Villa, and he saves it for many sisters, as their last mission because I am with so many excellent Daughters, and we are all on the road to deeper companionship with Jesus, so there is a union among, and a purposefulness among us, not artificial, it’s just there. It’s part of us. It’s such a great experience of community. I have always loved the community, but I think I have experienced it in it’s completeness, it it’s fullness here at Villa St. Michael. Thank God for the Villa. Thank God for my sister companions. If I could sing, I would sing the hymn “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow,” for as I worked on these taped minutes of my autobiography, I was more and more aware of the fact that my life was one complete succession of graces and benefits from God. I know family, faith, community are tremendous blessings from God, but all of them, faith, family, and community, have become deeper in my awareness of God’s goodness to us by living in the Villa. I cannot stress that enough. I would put that at the basis of all my happiness in all my final years of community living. We’re all getting ready to join him. We’re all trying to deepen our companionship with Jesus, so that when he comes for us, we will love him as much as we can, and that forms a bond that I’ve never felt before. I’ve always loved community, always stressed that the three middle words are “You” and “I,” and it has to be together we form community. But in the Villa, it is not just expressed, it is lived and it is felt. And it propels me forward, and I thank God with all my heart for my years at the Villa, and also for all his blessings of faith, community, family, anyone else that I received during my whole life, I want to thank him for them. But the zenith is the Villa. And we thank you, because you have been a blessing to us also. � https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f16c2b384223325d5e3a08afecfec962.mp3 9e1e6b22f3d15097bc09e7897b9cf991 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/918e80a540ed8d55237eac7052aa394d.jpg 20024b385c23d7ce3d24d775bfef1b57 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hughes, Sister Mary Clare, D.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hughes, Sister Mary Clare, D.C. Catholic hospitals Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul. Emmitsburg Province Description An account of the resource Sister Mary Clare Hughes, D.C. discussed her life in community as a Daughter of Charity. She began her career as a nurse at St. Vincent’s Hospital in Jacksonville, FL and St. Mary’s Hospital, Saginaw, MI before becoming Assistant Visitatrix of the Eastern Province of the Daughters from 1962-1969, Assistant Visitatrix of the Southeast Province from 1969-1974, and Visitatrix of the Southeast Province from 1974-1983. Relating to her time in office, she discusses the first Provincial and General Assemblies of the community after Vatican II, the changing of the Daughters of Charity habit, the exhumation of Elizabeth Ann Seton in anticipation of her beatification, the division of the five provinces in 1969, the closing of St. Joseph College, the building of the new provincial campus in Emmitsburg, and important guests such as Saint Teresa of Calcutta and President Jimmy Carter. She also discusses her close collaboration with General Councillor Sister Hilda Gleason and Vincentian Superior Father Richard McCullen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hughes, Sister Mary Clare, D.C. Schmalzried, Sister Maureen, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-17 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Scott (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Rights owned by Sister Maureen Schmalzried, D.C. Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication. Contact archives staff for appropriate forms and contact information. Relation A related resource RG 1-3 Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton Collection RG 3-4 Habit Collection RG 4-31 Rev. Richard McCullen Collection RG 6 (General Councillors) Hilda Gleason RG 7-4-5 Erection of Five USA Provinces Collection RG 9-4-1 Sister Eleanor McNabb Collection RG 11 Emmitsburg, MD – St. Joseph’s Provincial House Collection RG 11 Emmitsburg, MD – Seton Shrine Center Collection RG 11 Emmitsburg, MD – Villa St. Michael Collection RG 15 Provincial and General Assemblies Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 1:08:20 Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hughes, Sister Mary Clare, D.C. Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1924-2019 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b4f6dbc3ce6935c31e77f68c4d421389.JPG e706ba8fc4b540a6bc4628be4547a171 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f7dce71ee17ef74a143801b884dec1be.pdf 67e02f8e7f33631c9a3752a9a7c8b86b PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH SISTER CELESTIA KOEBEL October 31, 2013 I=INTERVIEWER Sisters Andrea Koverman and Tracy Kemme S= SISTER being interviewed.... Sister Celestia Koebel M= Sister Monica Lucas....close friend of S. Celestia present and assisted at interview I: Tell us a little bit about your life before you became a Sister. S: I was born in Chillicothe, Ohio. I have three blood sisters. Mary, the oldest is deceased; Ann, who is also a Sister of Charity; Jodie, my younger sister is married and has a family. She lives in Florida. Three of us were nurses. Mary was an RN, and Jodie went through nursing, too, and then of course, I went through nursing. When I entered, I did not have a good feeling about teaching, so I kept telling people that I would like to go into another field, mainly nursing. So, two other Sisters and I were placed in nursing which was not the usual route after having taken first vows, it was usually teaching. So, I went into a three-year program at Good Samaritan Hospital here in Cincinnati I: Was your mother a nurse? S: No, she was a simple housewife. My Dad was a CPA, had a full-time job and then kept books for other establishments on the side. I used to help him put the checks in order when he had to do the reconciliations. He died when I was in nursing I entered in 1946 and was in nursing in 1947, 1948 and 1949.1 liked nursing very much, and I always appreciated the fact that the three of us were picked for nursing. Sister Helen Cranley, who is now in Mother Margaret Hall, was one, Sister Ann Seton Gallagher, who is deceased was the third one. I: Do you have any memories or stories of when you were growing up with your siblings. What life what life was like in your family home? M: Tell them the fishing story. S: We were out in the middle of a creek in our hip boots when my Dad had a strike. We were standing on a log that was really in the water, so he told me to put my pole out there, and WHAM! I pulled so hard that the poor fish went back into the water, but I just picked it up. That was the first time I ever caught a fish. I used to go fishing with my Dad because he worked very hard to support his family, but he liked to get up at 4:00 a.m. To go fishing before he went to work at 7:00 a.m. I would go with him frequently and then I would go back home and slip back into bed. We had a very close family. We did everything together. All of us girls went to the Mount after we graduated from high school. I had Sisters of Charity �teaching me all during my school years. We went to St. Mary's in Chillicothe where the SCs were there. We kind of grew up with the Sisters. We all went to College at the Mount on scholarships because our family didn't have a lot of money, but we worked hard in school and were able to get scholarships. I: So what did you study at the Mount? S: As I said,I knew that I didn't want to be a teacher, but I let it be known that I would like to be in nursing. I went to school two years and then I entered. My sister, Rita, the second oldest, had entered, and I got the idea that it was pretty neat so I entered too. My oldest sister, Mary went into nursing at Good Samaritan and then eventually got married and had a family as did my youngest sister Jodie. M: What kind of nurse did you become? S: I became an OB nurse. I think that I went into that right away. The first year I was out West at St. Mary Corwin in Pueblo. After that I was sent to Good Samaritan and was an OB nurse there. That was when we used to deliver about 500 babies a month. I: So you entered the Community because your older sister did? S: I think I got the idea from her, but I probably would have otherwise anyway, I'm not sure, it's hard to tell. I: How much older was she than you? S: Three years. I: Did you think about becoming a Sister earlier in life, like when you were in grade school and high school with the Sisters of Charity? S: I didn't think too much about it I don't think that I really felt that I had a vocation until I was probably in College. I: What are some memories of your early years as a member of the Congregation when you were in formation and in the novitiate? S: Oh! We did a lot of things. We tried to be very good and got our prayers and obey and everything, but every once in a while we would get into a little bit of trouble here and there. We were young and we had to see what we could get away with. I: Can you think of any particular incident? �S: No. M: Can you think of anything, because, as a nurse, you were sent out quickly didn't you to Good Samaritan? Can you think of anything that the young Sisters did. Roz has got lots of stories. Do you remember when Grace Marie was your Superior or anything? S: Oh! I think that Sister Grace Marie was instrumental in my being picked to go into nursing. She was not only the Administrator at Good Samaritan, but she was also Coordinator of Health Care Services, and she was instrumental in picking people to go to school, and she was a good friend. I: Did you live in community when were at Good Samaritan? S: Yes. We had a whole wing that was for the convent because there were so many Sisters there at the time... probably about 20 or 25 Sisters. I: That's a lot! Nursing School was pretty regimented in those days wasn't it? Didn't you have curfews where you had to sign in and sign out? M: Tell her the curfew story in Dayton with Sister Mary Romana when she was the Superior. After her term as Mother, she became Superior at Good Samaritan, Dayton and you were OB nursing Supervisor. S: Was I Supervisor there? Yes, I remember. Sister Edward Cecile and I used to be late getting the office closed, and I had been late leaving the floor. Mother would lock the convent doors at 8:15 because we were all supposed to be in by that time. She would lock both the elevators and the doors so we had to get Security to let us in. We would kind of tiptoe by her office because often times she was still sitting there working. Sister Edward Cecile (Roz) was there too. She worked in the office. She was always one for a good time. Be sure you interview her! M: Sister Grace Marie is the one who asked you to go into Hospital Administration and sent you to St. Louis University. I: Were you interested in doing that? ? S: Yes. I went to school and got my Masters in Health Administration. That was a one-year program at St. Louis University, and the second year out in a hospital. They sent me to Providence Hospital in Seattle, Washington. M: Tell them the earthquake story. S: Good Friday, I was in the chapel praying and I thought that it was a little strange that the votive light �was kind of moving back and forth. I didn't think too much about it until later when I found out that it was an earthquake that had occurred that afternoon. It wasn't a bad one. I really liked Seattle and I enjoyed the Providence Sister, Sister Gertrude, who was my mentor when I was in the residency program. So, I got to take long train rides because we didn't fly in those days. Going out to Seattle, Washington was quite a trip. I: Were you by yourself? S: Well, I could to that by myself, but there were certain things we couldn't do by ourselves, like shopping, etc. But going on a long trip to Seattle, I could do that by myself, (chuckles all around). So, then I finished my residency which lasted two years, one year in St. Louis attending classes and one year in Seattle. I had another Sister-friend. She was from the East Coast. She and I used to walk a mile down the road (rain or shine) from where we lived in what was like a hotel. But it was really a dorm for St. Louis University. It was good for us. I: After your year in St. Louis, then you went to Seattle? S: Right. I: What did you do after that? S: I graduated from St. Louis University with a Masters in Health Administration M: After you graduated you were sent to Albuquerque to build a hospital. That's where you spent 25 years. S: There was an old hospital there that needed renovation or replacement. On one of my trips East, Mother Mary Omer informed me that they had agreed to build a new hospital. It was an interesting process, because I had no experience but I would meet with the department heads of our other hospitals in the West and say, "Now, if you were building a new hospital, now would you do it?" So ,1 got a lot of help between them and working with the Architect. We tried to get it right. I: So you were instrumental in designing the hospital? S: The hospital opened on June 6, 1966 as St. Joseph's Hospital. I: I know that hospital, it is huge and there is a big memorial to Mother Seton �M: that was in Celestia's honor. She went out two years ago, they had the dedication for the Memorial Park. I: Lots of Sister of Charity worked there right? S: Oh yes. But it is not ours anymore. There were many Sisters of Charity in Albuquerque at the time. There were many in the hospital and then there were some in Old Town, St. Vincent's Academy and other places. There were about seven Catholic schools in Albuquerque at that time staffed by the Sisters of Charity. I: After the building of the hospital, what was it like? S: It worked out pretty well. It was quite a step from the small hospital, we had to get used to this 12story structure I: It is still a vibrant, thriving hospital, so it is still a legacy even though it is no longer our Community's hospital. I: It has to be a little scary to be in charge of that big a project without having any experience S: Well, that is why I used so many people to help me out. M: I can remember one day when we lived in the old convent (which has since been torn down). She and I were going out and I said that I would meet her at the garage (and the garage was very small) and we both had learned to drive in New Mexico. I went out, and she was in tears, and she said, "I have got to back and ask for $10,000,000 ! S: But I did go, and I got the money, and I did survive. I: How long were you there at the hospital? M: She was there 25 years. She probably would have stayed longer, but Sister Grace Marie Hiltz died and the Community begged her to come back and take over SCHCS (Sisters of Charity Health Care Systems). So she came back although she would have preferred to stay in Albuquerque. M: (continued) She was involved with SCHCS for about ten years and together \ with two others got the brainstorm of forming CHI (Catholic Health Initiatives) S: Diane Moore out of Catholic Health Associations in Omaha where she led a group of eight or so hospitals in her part of the country. She lived in Omaha. And with her and with Ron Aldridge who was the head of the Franciscan Health Systems from Astin, Pennsylvania. The three of us met together to see what we could do together. And, finally, in 1996, we founded CHI which was a separate �entity which took the place of the other systems. And then, the Sister of Charity of Nazareth Health Care System in Bardstown, Kentucky came in and joined us within a year. It was a very interesting process, because, here we were CEOs' appointed by our religious superiors, trying to convince these superiors that we needed to let go of our health care institutions and agree to be led by another organization. I: Can you remember what led you to think that something like this should be formed? S: It was the fact that health care was getting very complicated,and that we didn't have the Sisters interested in getting in and getting trained anymore. There were fewer Sisters at this time, and we felt that it was important to keep the viability of the institutions alive. I would also say that other Catholic institutions were looking to doing the same kind of thing that we were so it kind of became a trend at that time. So we founded CHI. I have a whole book on it written by S. Maryanna Coyle and Pat Cahill who at that time was the head of the Catholic Health Corporation in Omaha made up a many hospitals around the Omaha area. We were all trying to educate and motivate our leadership to have a new model for health care. I: Was there much resistance in the Community for that? S: I wouldn't say a lot. It was a leadership decision, of course. The Sisters were all informed about it but the leadership could understand how complicated health care was getting at that time. So, I would say that the fact that these other hospital systems were willing to work with us probably made it easier for our leadership to accept. M: They did a good thing. First of all, they took a year to educate all the staffs, the boards, etc. and then for another year the team traveled to every convent and we had meetings where they explained the plan. They would get questions, and they would send back the answers. Besides that, Celestia was a firm believer in the laity. Some of the Sisters didn't want the responsibility of leadership. So it was one of the marks of her whole , group to bring in the laity. After they had gone around for a year or two, it was brought to a vote at the Chapter and it was accepted unanimously. She (Celestia) almost fainted. S: It was a great moment. We knew that it would affect the Sisters who had worked in health care all their lives to accept this...that we were sort of giving up our health care institutions. But I think what probably helped was the fact that other health care systems were coming with us, joining with us. I: That was so forward-thinking. We keep hearing in all our formation process comments about health care �and your work and your vision was so forward-thinking on that. M: From what perspective have you heard about it? I: Just visiting other communities. We've taken some trips to other Communities and talked about how they have dealt with their hospitals and health care in general. Everyone has seen this as sort of an example of a good thing, and the time was right too. S: Health care was becoming too complex, and there were not enough Sisters involved or willing to be involved in the leadership. M: And they didn't have the money, that also was a big thing. S: We founded CHI in 1996, and within a year the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth joined us. I: Can you explain a little bit about what that meant, because, if I understand correctly, now that none of the hospitals were sold, right? What exactly happened to all the hospitals? S: We created CHI which was the sponsoring group for the new Health Care System. So, in essence, the Congregations turned over the ownership to it. It did take a lot of education on our part to help the members understand why we were doing this. But, we were able to pull it off. Sister Marianna Coyle was President at that time, and she was a firm believer that we were doing the right thing and she helped us a lot. I: Was there a period of transition after that was formed? Did you stay involved with the hospitals, or did you step out of it? S: People were given the choice. If they were in a position in a hospital they were given the choice to either stay there or not. But, it was almost the decision of the new group's leadership to pick leaders for the institutions at that time. I: So, did you stay in the position of leadership in the hospital? S: No. By that time, I was the President of SCHCS, so I had left any leadership position in any individual hospital. I: What did you do? �M: When CHI was formed, the three of you decided that you should not be a part of that new CHI. S: It wasn't such a big thing except to the individual hospital's administrators. I: So that people who were employed there simply became employees of CHI? I: Were you living in Cincinnati at that time? S: Yes, I was President of SCHCS for 10 years and at the end of that time, I became a member of many Boards I: Did you enjoy that, traveling around and being on Boards? M: Tell them how you were on 9/11. You were out in Seattle and you and your partner decided what? S: I was a Board member at Providence Hospital then. Another woman and I wondered how we would get back home since there were no planes flying. We thought about renting a car and driving, but we were not that eager to get home. I: What did you do after retirement? Did you really retire? S: By that time, I wasn't too young.... how many years ago was that? M: Well, you retired about 10 years ago, but you only retired from Board membership about 8 years ago. And a few years later you started having health problems that has been 6 or 7 years now. S: And I'm now 85! I: When you were commenting about how involving the laity was always really important to you, it made me think of our class on Vatican II and I was just wondering about whether you had any memories about when Vatican was happening. How did that affect your work and your life? People have told us that Vatican II came out and there many changes in the liturgy, changes about how common life was lived, the dress of Sisters etc. I don't know if you were in leadership at the hospital at that time or what. S: I think that all that was happening while I was still in Health Administration in Albuquerque. M: We received a memo saying that the Sisters would change their black habits for blue or not. There were 30 Sisters on staff at the time. Celestia was Administrator and I was Superior and every one of the Sisters decided to change. Sister Grace Marie came out West about that time and she told us that the �nuns back East were saying that our Sisters had been forced to change, (laughter) The nurses had more dealings with the laity and the doctors than a teacher would. The hospital Sisters, for the most part, welcomed the change because their conversations with adults were always meaningful, educational and collaborative. S: It wasn't too difficult for us to change. I: So you welcomed the change.... it felt natural? S&M: Yes M: I've never seen anyone who has been able to meet change like her (Celestia) she is not excitable about things. that's her temperament. S: This book (CHI) was written by Pat Cahill and S. Maryanna Coyle about the time that all this was happening (AT THIS POINT SHE OFFERED THE BOOK TO THE NOVICES TO USE AS A REFERENCE FOR MORE INFORMATION BUT DID SAY THAT SHE WANTED IT BACK). I: Thank you, we would enjoy looking at that. M: That's about one of the last things Maryanna did. A couple of weeks later she called us and asked us to go out to dinner, and she told us that she had cancer. She lasted about a year and a half after that. Monica (addressing Celestia): What did Maryanna say about CHI? That it was a good idea? She had not really bought into it at the beginning. She said that the reason that she wasn't too sold on it was because it had not been her idea, (laughter) I: Can you talk about the Community charism or what sustained you through all your years as a Sister of Charity? S I was always happy in my vocation and when all this happened, it didn't affect me much. My sister (S. Ann Koebel) was OK with it too. Others could do whatever they wanted to do, but I felt that I still had a vocation and wanted to live it out. I: What do you like specifically about the charism of our Community? S: That is hard to answer, because I don't know what other Communities charisms are.. I: What do you like about this Community, how about that?... what's the best thing about being a Sister of Charity? �S: I think that our Community has grown with the sociatal changes that have happened; have accepted that, and we haven't tried to hold on to a lot of things. I was just happy in my vocation and I wanted to stay there. Fortunately, I didn't have the temptation to do something else. M: I think the charism, you know, taking care of the poor, ministering health-wise, and social justice issues and things like that, we may not be involved in per se, but we pray for those who are and we are glad that the Community is open to them. Open placement is something we had not experienced before, and when we did, it was a little bit difficult because we were held responsible for what we chose to do. The hospitals, I think, saw more of the Sisters who left because they were sent to the hospital for us to get them ready, getting them dressed etc, In Santa Fe, they had a lot of young Sisters, too and for whatever reason, a lot of them left from there. Celestia made sure that when they went out, we as a Community were behind them, had jobs for them etc A few stayed at our hospital for some time. S: Well, that was what we did in those days, it was all part of being a Sister of Charity, and we, at the hospital, probably had more resources to help them. I: You were talking before about having fun times out in the West. You've had some pretty big jobs but what have you done for fun throughout your life as a Sister of Charity? S: Well, we were able to take trips. In my job I was able to go out of town periodically to attend professional meetings, and when I could , I would take someone else with me. Or sometimes, I would stay maybe a day or two extra to enjoy the place. That helped. I: It sounds like you have a strong spirit of adventure. M: She went up in a hot air balloon and sometimes when we had golf tournaments some people would offer rides in a small plane, and, she once had a beer with Willie Nelson in his bus. (LAUGHTER AND EXCLAMATIONS!) I: Tell us how that happened. S: He was entertaining at one of our golf tournaments and invited me in. M: The guy she really liked and got to come every time because he became a sponsor, was Charlie Pride... she still gets a Christmas card from him. I: Do you like to read? S: I love to read. I read a lot. I like a good novel. �I: Did you ever play golf? S: Not really. I was too busy trying to raise the money I: Do you like Willie Nelson's music? S: I really don't know. I like classical music I: Have you gone down to the symphony? S. Yes, I have. We have a great symphony here. I: Throughout your life as a Sister of Charity you've seen lots and lots of changes in the Community and in religious life. Do you have any thoughts about the future of religious life? S: Changes, yes. But, changes probably brought on by changes in life in general. I think that religious life is always going to adapt to changes socially, too. That just kind of happens. But our primary goal as vowed religious isn't going to change. END OF DISC #1 THERE IS A SECOND DISC BUT IT CONTAINS ONLY A FEW WORDS OF GRATITUDE FROM THE NOVICES FOR THE PLEASURE OF THIS INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Koebel, Sister Celestia, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC; Kemme, Sister Tracy, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 27 Minutes 36 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Albuquerque (N.M.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Celestia Koebel, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC and Sister Tracy Kemme, SC October 31, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic hospitals -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Celesia Koebel by Sister Andrea Koverman and Sister Tracy Kemme. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koebel, Sister Celestia, SC; Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC; Kemme, Sister Tracy, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/31/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Celestia Koebel, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC and Sister Tracy Kemme, SC October 31, 2013 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-2013 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/cf24d31ea417ba8f5757e96e26fd8e26.JPG a22472a52915e95faddc12711a7836a0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lap Desk used by Mother Regina Mattingly circa 1855 Subject The topic of the resource Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History Catholic Church. Archdiocese of Cincinnati (Ohio) Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Cincinnati (Ohio) Mount Saint Joseph (Ohio) Description An account of the resource A small brass plate inscribed “Sr. Mary Regina” affixed to a varnished wooden box - a black velvet-lined writing surface – small compartments for pens and ink – and tucked beneath, a secure space for writing paper, snippets already penned, or letters received. Mother Regina’s lap desk was a well-loved and treasured possession. When did she acquire such an item? On how many journeys did it accompany her? Imagine her carrying it as she made her way to Dayton to open the new St. Mary’s Academy in 1857. Or later, when she was Mother of the Congregation, did it accompany her as she traveled to visit the Sisters on the various missions? Did she use it as she sat in quiet corners at Cedar Grove, the Motherhouse of the Community at this time and the current site of Seton High School, writing in her journals? Or in her last months as she lay in a hospital bed suffering the ravages of cancer? Well-educated as a young woman, Mother Regina Mattingly was a deeply reflective person, a lover of books, a devoted educator, a keeper of journals, and a prolific letter-writer. Surely, for such a one, the familiar feel of the polished wood and the worn velvet cloth provided a sense of comfort and peace as she settled in with pen and paper. As she began her journals, she told herself, “All that I may promise in these pages shall be the true exponent of self, as far as circumstances will permit….I wish to be real in all things – real in friendship, real in practical piety, real in the correction of my many faults, real in my intercourse with others, and above all real in my love of God and His Sacred Heart.” She returns again and again to these themes, often starting a passage by describing some event such as the felling of trees at Cedar Grove, then shifting to a spiritual reflection, as when she writes, “It forcibly reminded me of the roots of our human passions with some of us have been tugging at for so many years.” A great lover of natural beauty, she often remarked on her surroundings as when she and Mother Josephine Harvey visited the Western missions where she was extravagant in describing the magnificent sights of the Colorado Rockies, and the gorgeous hues of the New Mexico Sangre de Cristo Mountains. By reading her journals and letters, it is possible to see deeply into the soul of this prayerful woman who was so influential in the foundational years of the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati. How many of these passages were written on her beautiful lap desk? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Manufacturer Unknown Lap Desk given to the archives following Mother Regina Mattingly’s death in 1883. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available N/A Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1855 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource N/A Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Relation A related resource N/A Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Equipment and tools Wood with sectional compartments, measures 10” x 5” x 16” Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Physical Object Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context N/A Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Cincinnati (Ohio) Mount Saint Joseph (Ohio) Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/2c9fec846b91d21718a8c208f7378c19.jpg 06a72fe5c1f98b2310b7f6fdf40395e6 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/fefae11f535f1120223344d5de6a773a.mp3 2e43bc3240f0f092fae74cf93a260119 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/87619c9a297b9373255a010440ecdf4d.pdf 97b1bd390c7aef9029db54c1e9100dee PDF Text Text Interview with Sister Lucia Mao Interviewer: S. Pat Saul NOTE TO READER: This interview seems to have been conducted in a restaurant. The background noises are very loud and make it difficult to understand at times. The interviewer began by asking: “How did you get connected with the Charities?” Through a Franciscan priest. First I have to start with the fact that I was a convert. I was baptized in July of 1946. After that I had to leave the city and come to the South where there was no church, of course. When Spring came I saw the trees and flowers, I realized that it was time for Easter. So I thought I had better go to find a church to fulfill my Easter Duties. That’s where I met a Franciscan priest. He asked me if I would like to go to Confession. I told him then that this would only be my second confession since I was baptized. He invited me to come back in the morning and he will be having Mass here. There would be only a handful of people there. So I went. When it was time for Communion, I kept on going, but he told me to wait until I was the last one to receive Communion.....and he gave me five hosts!!! Later I asked him why he had given me five hosts. He answered that this was his last Mass, and that he was leaving and he didn’t know when another priest would be coming... he was a Chinese priest. Then he asked me what I was doing. I answered that I would be graduating in May, and I have to get a salary. So, I would like to go to nursing school. He then told me that he knew somebody in Wuchang, Sister Francis Maria. I asked what kind of sisters are they? He said that he didn’t know. You see, he was a refugee from the North also, and he was not familiar with the Sisters. �2 Interviewer: Did your whole family come with you? No, not my whole family, just my aunt. You see, my mother was dead by that time, she had been killed by the Japanese, so I lived with my aunt. So my aunt, my uncle and my little niece came to the South, just the four of us. Interviewer: Did they convert to Catholicism, too? No, I am the only one and my younger brother. We went to Catholic school but we were not Catholic. The reason why we went to Catholic school was because, during the Japanese occupation, the Catholic school was the only decent school there was around there. They decided that they would build a dispensary. My grandmother had connection with the dispensary. When we were sick, she always dragged us there to see the Sisters. The Sisters there were not even nurses, they just dispensed ordinary medicine. They also had a school. That’s where we went to school, even though we were not Catholic, but they always had a religion class first, two hours in the morning. They didn’t ask if we wanted to attend, but we went and that is where I learned about religion. Then, we asked to be baptized. They wouldn’t want to baptize me, because I was a girl—in China when girls marry you have to go with your husband, whatever religion he is--. My brother was younger and he got baptized because he was a boy. When I was 16 or 17 we had a big war going on. The Japanese, where we lived, inside the city and the National Chinese outside the city. I went to the priest and said, you have to baptize me . He asked why. I said if I get killed by one of those guns, I won’t be baptized. He said, well, you could have the Baptism of Desire. I said, I know but I’d like to have the real thing. So, he baptized me. I had no one for my Sponsor, so he went to the dispensary and asked one of the Sisters. The Sisters were not supposed to, but that was an emergency . So I got baptized there. It wasn’t even a feast day. I told Father, if I don’t get baptized and I die, I’ll come and get you! Later, Father gave me the address of Sister Francis Maria. So, I thought, I’d better go and take a look and see if I’d like to go there. If not, I should make arrangements to go to another school. So, I went just to look. I told them that I wanted to be a Sister, but first I wanted to be a nurse. I would become a nurse and then I would go to become a Sister. �3 They said that they were building a hospital at that time. They suggested that I reverse, enter first, and then become a nurse later after you become a Sister, and I agreed. I had not told my aunt or uncle. At the time that I had left, my aunt had given me enough clothes for two weeks. I didn’t tell them what I was going to do. So, I decided I wanted to enter, and I did. I entered in September. In November, the Mother General sent a word for us. The Professed Sisters, the Novices had to come to the States. But we who were Postulants did not have to go, we had a choice, stay or come. At that time there were seven of us and we talked it over. We thought that it would take about 3 years and by that time we would finish our novitiate and then we would be back home. And so we decided that we would come. When we got to Shanghai, we had to wait for Pauline and two other young ladies who were joining us. They still had to get their passports. While I was there, I wrote to my aunt and uncle and told them that I had entered instead of nursing. Then, my uncle wrote me a long letter saying that I didn’t know what I was doing, didn’t we treat you right? And he said, if you don’t like it you can come home. We thought at that time, that we wouldn’t be gone not more than three years, we didn’t think that the war wouldn’t last that long. But it lasted longer than anybody expected. You asked about my parents. They are not Catholic. But, one thing, my father did have a connection at one time. He went to Bejing and he studied with an order of priests who spoke French. So he spoke French. The priests came to our little town later, and they did not know how to speak English, I mean Chinese. When they spoke French, my father would interpret for them. When people found out that he was not even Catholic they were surprised. AT THIS POINT THE INTERVIEWER ASKED ABOUT HER FAMILY. Many...you don’t want to know, there are a lot. I had one father, three mothers (she laughs ....there’s a whole bunch of us). My first mother, she had one boy. The other mother she had one older girl that died. And then the third wife she had six boys. Right now there are only three of them left. They are really my half brothers because my mother only had me. My younger brother and I went to school. Boys went to boys’ school and girls go to girls’. He was only nine months younger than I am. He is Catholic. �4 When I went home to Taiwan, his wife saw us going to church, and she said when you are not here your brother doesn’t go to church. See, they work 6 ½ days a week, they only get a half day off on Sunday, so he doesn’t always feel like going to church. INTERVIEWER: IS IT STILL UNDER STRICT CONTROL OVER THERE NOW? Not in Taiwan. In the Peoples Republic of China, I don’t know that much about it. When I went home in 1985, the church was open, but I understand that they are not under the jurisdiction of the Pope. So, my family won’t take me to church...I didn’t want to go, but the rest of the Chinese Sisters, they go. Now I think that Rome does recognize them. In Taiwan there are no restrictions . In Taiwan I have two brothers, cousins and nieces and nephews. The reason they are there in Taiwan is because they are all military people. My cousin in the navy, my brother in the army, my older brother is with the police, so they went there. They are all having a hard time right now. INTERVIEWER: DID YOU GET YOUR NURSES TRAINING OVER HERE? Yes. Mary Pauline and I both made our final vows and most of the time we worked in Mother Margaret Hall. After we made our final vows we thought we would spend the rest of our lives there, so we couldn’t go back to China. At that time, Mother Mary Romana was in office. When we got our Mission Letters we said you made a mistake that’s not for us...she said, yes, isn’t you name Lucia? I said yes, but I’m ready to go back to Mother Margaret Hall for the rest of my life. She said, well, you’d better go look in your letter and see what is in there . We were missioned to Good Samaritan, Dayton. After we read our letters we went to see Mother individually. She said to us, it takes an American girl three years to finish nursing, but now you can take four years, five years, since you will not be going back to China for a while . We made it in three years, with a very low score. Psychiatry was the worst part. We didn’t know the language our mistakes were mostly in multiple choice, we had to know the language in order to read it. But we made it in three years and then Mary Pauline and I were missioned out like the rest of them. �5 INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU ABLE TO GO TOGETHER? No, we were separated. She went to Kenton and I went to St. Joseph Infant Home. Later, I went to Trinidad, she went to (noisy, could not understand) Her specialty was psychiatry. She was so good! She was almost as good as the doctor. INTERVIEWER: WHAT WAS YOUR SPECIALTY? I would say operating and/or emergency room. That’s where I started in Trinidad, it was a small hospital. Sister Jeanne Roach was there. She worked what seemed like 33 hours in a 24 hour day...she did everything, OR, ER, nursing service and sometimes, she even had to take charge of a floor. After she left, there was no one for OR so I went there, but I was still on night duty. I liked it there very much. I like the Emergency Room, I even like OB. I wasn’t very good with OB, but in Trinidad they had few doctors and it was not easy to get a doctor during the night. They would claim that we did not know what we were talking about. When they give me a hard time, I would say, just go back to sleep, I’ll go deliver my own baby. He would say, don’t you dare, don’t you dare! and I always managed to get them there. One doctor signed the birth certificate and the woman said she would not pay the bill, because she told the Doctor, you didn’t do anything for my baby, Sister did! Yes I like Trinidad, I was there for 7 years. We often laughed when the people who didn’t have money would pay their bill with chickens, goats. One day when I was in the emergency room and was told that I did a very good job. The man came back with 12 eggs and he said that that was not in payment, it was for me. �6 INTERVIEWER: HOW MANY SISTERS WERE IN TRINIDAD AT THAT TIME? We had three tables full...close to 30, but not all in nursing ... Jeanne and myself... whenever anyone came, they didn’t stay very long so it changed often... at times we were three nurses, an Administrator and Superior at the same time. The doctors in Trinidad practiced good medicine, very much up to date. I was there 7 years, and I liked it. I became good friends with Sister Jeanne, she worked all the time. Her Dad came to see her, but she never had time to visit with him. She was in emergency, OR, ER and every other place. So I visited with him. So after she left, her Dad still came back to visit me. Her Dad sort of adopted me. INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU IN CHINA DURING THE JAPANESE OCCUPATION? I was there for 8 years. The Japanese killed my mother. They had their own government in the South. My uncle became the mayor of that town. In China the mayor is a very big shot. He even had a bodyguard. Many of the Japanese officials came to see him. Then we saw them too. One of the Japanese soldiers had received a package from his mother with toys and other things and he would bring it to our house to give to the kids...that was OK, but when they got drunk, we all had to hide we didn’t know what they would do. Other than that they were good. In school part of the schedule was that we had to learn Japanese two hours a week. We learned a few words, like “good morning” and “good afternoon”... in between time, we were taught English. Because we were not Catholic at time, we were left alone. My grandmother became a Catholic later. My uncle did not because he did not like to kneel. In China there was only a bench to kneel on and that was hard to do. But every feastday like Christmas and Easter, my uncle would always go to church with us there was much pageantry and he liked that. He often had a big banquet delivered to the convent for the Sisters. He thought that the Catholic church saved his life otherwise he would have been shot. �7 They killed my mother, but even then I wasn’t angry. We were the enemy, and they had to do what they had to do. Every time the airplanes come, they bombed us and even then I didn’t feel angry. When my mother died I was 9. The family had to run away. See where we lived it was in the country and there were no telephones and we got the news later than others. The newspapers said that the Japanese were going to be there in like a week or so. So we had made provisions, we were going to go to a relative’s house in the mountains because where we lived it was wide open, so we were going to go. In China, a new mother was not supposed to step out of the house for a full month. So, my aunt stayed home with the baby so they couldn’t go to the mountains. My mother and I were running, but there was shooting on both sides. We were the last ones to leave. My mother got tired and she said, your aunt is still home, let’s go back home. So we went home and the Japanese came but they didn’t stay, they kept on marching on a very narrow road. But the last group stayed in the village. They didn’t stay inside a house, they were afraid that the Chinese soldiers come and get them, they stayed outside. But while it was still daylight, they came into the house and they asked my mother for money or something since she didn’t have any they hit my mother and she fell. My aunts kept telling my mother to stay down, to pretend she was dead. But she did not she put me into the bed with my sister-in-law and the baby, all three of us hid in the bed. So, they finally killed her. My mother and I were very close. Since I was her only child, I had never been away from her for even one night, I stayed with her all the time. Later when it got dark and the Japanese went outside, my aunt gave me a choice, either I would stay with her or I would go with my father. I chose to stay with her because my mother and my aunt were good friends, so I stayed with her, she took care of me all the time. A little history: when my grandfather was a young man he owned a cigarette company. (at this point she is explaining a diagram) The Bishop lived here. The Bishop had money to build a church in the city, our city. So, my grandfather needed spices for his cigarette stuff from this city, but the Bishop needed money to send to a place to build a church ( I could not understand her explanation since I could not see the diagram... I think she was explaining the relationship between the Bishop and her grandfather) And so when they came to inspect the church, they always made a call on my grandfather. The neighbors thought that my grandfather was Catholic because the hierarchy came to visit but in reality, they came to visit with him because they had had business together at one time. �8 WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU CAME OVER WITH THE OTHER SISTERS DID YOU ALL BAND TOGETHER? DID THE DIFFERENT DIALECTS MAKE A DIFFERENCE? No, it didn’t. Some of them spoke Mandarin but there is not that much difference. Sister Columba and another Sister they were from Hunan, that’s not too far . Now my dialect is all mixed up. We understood each other. We didn’t stay together much. Some tried to stay with the American Sisters. Some of the Sisters that we worked with in Mother Margaret Hall were very nice, but some were not. Sister Michael Ann was in charge of Mother Margaret Hall and she was a nurse. She once commented by saying that she didn’t know how the Chinese Sisters put up with her. We had one Sister who had an asthma attack real bad , we had to give her a shot of adrenalin. Sister Michael Ann told Columba to give her a shot. But at that time we had not had much nurses training and Columba did not know. But I had worked there before, so I went to take care of her and that protected Columba. WOULD YOU DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN? I don’t mind. Yes I would. Most people have been very, very nice to us. In Nursing School, the worst teacher we ever had was a Sister of Charity. The best instructor I ever had was a Protestant, a Baptist, she helped me a lot. There were a lot of nice people. NO, I would not mind doing it all over again. I’m glad I did it when I did it, but I don’t think I want to start over. Nobody ever pitied us...saying that we would be homesick and things. Some times I think that they didn’t think we had any feelings. When I went back in 1985, I asked my aunt what did she think would have happened if I hadn’t left. She said I would be like the rest of them, miserable. �9 DO YOU THINK THAT NATIONALIST CHINA AND MAINLAND CHINA WOULD EVER UNITE? I wish they would. Most of the people have people in both parts it was like a civil war. The Communist would like to have one people. DOES TAIWAN NOW HAVE MOSTOF THE MONEY? I think so, yes. Those people are working hard to get where they are. They are more educated and so forth. DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATIVES IN THE STATES NOW? No. I had my nephew who was here 6 years but he had to go back because he could not get a green card, so he got layed off . But he liked it here. They had one baby born here. He is an American citizen, his father got him a dual citizenship. They lived in Studio City in California when they were here. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// THE REST OF THE TAPE WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE OF THE NOISE IN THE RESTAURANT... BUT THE DISCUSSION WAS MOSTLY A FRIENDLY CHAT ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. NOTE: towards the end of the tape, Lucia reiterated some information: - she was baptized in China she was confirmed in Santa Fe she was 13 years in all in the West she was 13 years in Michigan she liked every mission � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mao, Sister Lucia, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Saul, Sister Pat, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 1 Minute 40 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Nursing--United States--History; World War, 1939-1945 -- China Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Lucia Mao by Sister Pat Saul. No date was noted in the transcript and this recording seems to be more of an informal conversation taken while at a restaurant or public setting. Sister Lucia shares the challenges she and her family faced in China during the Japanese occupation in World War II. She also shares about her nursing education and ministry in the United States. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mao, Sister Lucia, SC; Saul, Sister Pat, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-1985 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series China Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/87d8b833332e6c4a83e9788968a6e77a.jpg 1d8977aa3b176b7e67655d702c6e8d97 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d140e3b4f084702af30b4e9d2ffaa206.mp3 6a23fe3caa7c3f0b666594bb2cc5110b https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0fe2253bfe2fe26e1bf1faf69c572d16.pdf da9b2fcbba3a7e9f6fc4a64cf94cc82d PDF Text Text SISTER MARY HELEN MCKENNA – ORAL HISTORY [Bracketed words, not names, are additions by the Sister upon review.] SVMF: Today is November 12, 2018, and I am here in Sister Mary Helen McKenna's room to begin her oral history, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, would like her to start answering the questions [on our sheet], and the first question is: We have a lot of material, Sister Mary Helen, in the Archives, but is there material you would like us to add to your folder about your life? So if you have something. . . SMHM: Sure, I'd love to have some more because my life is long, and there are a lot of little quips and quirks and fun and jokes that I have that I probably could tell about, things that happened in the Community when I was there. SVMF: All right, do you want to begin? SMHM: Well, I think maybe I should begin with my wonderful parents. Both of which came from Ireland and met over here, and then they had a nice little bouncy baby girl in 1920. And I was that little girl. And life at that time was very, very deep in Depression. And so we had the beginning of it anyway. So there were things that we had to do in food and clothing, all kinds of things to help us get through that Depression, and I think with a little baby girl, pretty active, that was a problem for them. And their background enabled them, however, to live through anything. They were strong, strong Irish. And I'm finished with the Depression. SVMF: It sounds as if you had a hard time during the Depression , but your family, your parents, were so good about it that they got you through. So where did you go to school, Mary Helen, and meet the Sisters of Charity? SMHM: Well, I went St. Mary's School, Jackson, Michigan, and I had the most wonderful sisters: Sister Rose [McConville] in the first grade; Sister, oh gosh, she became a great English teacher. . . . SVMF: Is there someone who really influenced you to become a Sister of Charity? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 1 �SMHM: Well, as I went through the grades, we went to high school, and Sister Loyola [Ruede] was another member of my class, and we loved Sister [Helen] Regina [Kuss]. She was a commercial teacher, and in those days it was good to have shorthand and some of these other things, typing and all that as a background for a job, And we really loved Sister Regina. SVMF: And so after you graduated, though, did you enter right away? SMHM: Well, yes we did because of her influence I entered that August after I had graduated in June. So I think lots of people did that. But I was the last one in the band of the August people, September. And I entered September 10, a couple of days late because of my dad wanting to drive and take me down. But when I was at the supper table after I had left my parents, it was close to supper, and Sister Camilla [Smith] was at the head of the table, and they put me at the foot. And of course they tried to make it nice for me. It was kind of hard to leave your parents and your brother and so. . . SVMF: So you have a brother? SMHM: I have a brother, Jack McKenna. And so anyway, they had all kinds of things trying to get me to talk and say something. Well, finally I got my tears together, and I said, "Well, one thing I love to do is to play tennis." Now as I said that, the bell had rung a few minutes, few seconds before, and so all through the whole Community at supper they heard: "I love to play tennis." SVMF: Because the bell was for silence and to do the dishes! SMHM: That's right. SVMF: So they all knew you loved to play tennis. SMHM: And so really that was my first night then, and of course everything was strange. We lived in the attic. SVMF: The 5th floor SMHM: 5th floor ©Sisters of Charity Archives 2 �SVMF: Yes SMHM: And so there wasn't room for me with my band, so they put me with Sister Virginia Ann [Temple] and that nice tall Sister. Gee, I kind of forget her name, but anyway she was one of the ones from along the line of Alma, all these farm countries [S. Mary Edmund Bensman], and so she was my angel. SVMF: You were just in a dorm with her by yourself? SMHM: Yes, and Virginia Ann. SVMF: And Virginia Ann. SMHM: I promoted up before I even got here as a band, and so we had 18 in our band. SVMF: So was Loyola in your band? SMHM: She came in February. It was of course my band. SVMF: Sure. You were just there for the two years like most of us? Postulant and novice, and then what happened to you? Did you go to school? SMHM: I went to the Athenaeum. I was missioned to the Athenaeum, and it was a wonderful experience. We went, five of us, the big bus of the Mount, and we also went in a beautiful car sometimes. And we had the most wonderful experience with Sister . . . . SVMF: At the Athenaeum some Sister? SMHM: At the Athenaeum SVMF: Was it a Sister of Charity? SMHM: Henrietta [Sister of Mercy] was one, and she was a great friend of the Sister I'm having trouble with the name. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 3 �SVMF: We might be able to find it later and put it in. So you went to the Athenaeum for two years maybe? SMHM: Yes. SVMF: And then what happened? SMHM: I was missioned to St. Mary's, Hyde Park, and this was how I went to my mission. Sister Grace Miriam [McCarthy] came from St. Mary's, Hyde Park, by bus, picked me up with my two little satchels, and we walked back to the bus, and we transferred someplace in Cincinnati, and then we went to St. Mary's, Hyde Park. There were 35 sisters there. SVMF: Because there was a grade school and a high school. SMHM: That's right. SVMF: And what grade were you teaching? SMHM: I was teaching, I began with grade 4, and I had geniuses in my class. SVMF: Oh, so you loved teaching? SMHM: Oh my, they were jumping out of their seats, and of course being from the Athenaeum I caught on years later. I had so many visitors, they would just come, pop in. SVMF: They were observers, really. SMHM: And I was being observed all this time. Well, then two years I was in fourth grade. And then someone moved, and I went to the sixth grade. Well, didn't I have the same jumping jacks again! And oh, but it was always good. We could take the liner, the music liner and run it down the chalkboard, and I'm using modern language now. We used to call it a blackboard. But anyway, we ran it down, and they could go up and put their poems that that they had made on the lines of that, and then the kids could sing it. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 4 �SVMF: Oh my, that's marvelous. SMHM: I had some tremendous people. SVMF: You did, you did. SMHM: One of them was the head of the liturgy here in Cincinnati. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: Giles Pater, P-A-T-E-R. And also, I had the Marist in Dayton, Brockmeyer, and honestly they were terrific. That Brockmeyer memorized in the fourth grade. He said, "Sister, I know some of the Inferno. SVMF: All right, Sister Mary Helen, we're going to straighten this up a little bit. The child who memorized the poem was Brockmeyer, and he memorized Dante's Inferno, part of it. SMHM: And he was so good that I sent him over to the high school to Sister Daniel Miriam's class, and she, oh my gosh, the kids couldn't get over it, and he was a skinny little guy and just darling, and I thought, but later he became the head of the Marists in Dayton. SVMF: From Saint Mary's, Hyde Park, you went to Saint Leo's. SMHM: Yes, Detroit. SVMF: And from Saint Leo's, Detroit, then you went to Royal Oak, the high school. SMHM: That's right. SVMF: Do you want to tell us anything about that? SMHM: I want to tell you one funny thing. There was one Sister and you can find the name probably, and she was a French teacher. And oh, she talked just like this, you know, and the French thing. And they sent me up, when I went there, ©Sisters of Charity Archives 5 �they sent me up with her to be alone in the house there, that Father Coughlin had appointed for the Sisters' convent. SVMF: The two of you were alone in the convent? SMHM: The two of us, and one day she came, she was on the second floor and I was on the first floor, and she came to me, "Oh, Sister, there's some man in my room." I said, "Oh, my gosh, Constantia, that's her name, I'll get this window pole." And so we went up, quietly up her stairs, and she said, "Oh, my heart, my heart," she said, and you could hear it, and it sounded like he was snoring. And I thought, well, . . . SMHM: My gosh, this is something. So we got to the top, and guess what it was? SVMF: What? SMHM: Her fan! Her fan was going back and forth, back and forth, but oh, my gosh, all I could think all this time was "Here I just got here, I'm in high school, and I've got this French teacher, and here she is telling me, 'There's a man in the room.'" And I didn't know where the phone was, I didn't know anything, and anyway we laughed about it later. SVMF: But from there you went to Queen of Martyrs then, and now you're already a principal. SMHM: Yea, a pretty young one. SVMF: A very young one. SMHM: Anyway, I went from Saint Mary's, I was there two years, they were pushing it, so I would have had some acquaintance with Father Coughlin. I didn't have an acquaintance with him, but at least he knew that I was teaching there and all of that. SVMF: So then they made you a principal. Did you have a background for that? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 6 �SMHM: I had to study while I was there. We had to buy books. We had to do everything. And Father Hebert was the pastor, and he was very particular, and I admired him a lot. He wanted the very best. Now Birmingham at that time was a very wealthy area. It was beyond Royal Oak, so there were a lot of wealthy people there. And he had for each classroom a wood carving of the Blessed Mother, as we have or used to have in our halls. It was 24 inches high, I would imagine. And every teacher could pick out whichever title of the Blessed Mother she wanted. And the school was beautiful. Really, everything he did he was fastidious. SVMF: Was this a brand new school? SMHM: Oh, brand new, nobody was ever there. SVMF: Oh, Queen of Martyrs was brand new. SMHM: I was the first person there, and we had several, four Sisters, Mary Bridget [Lydon} was one. Ruth Bockenstette [Bernard Mary] was another, and the third one was Mary Jerome Cremering. And then also to keep me in tow we had Mary Aiden, an older Sister, quite old, had been a principal all her life, I think. Anyway, I think she was supposed to be the guardian angel of all of us. SVMF: Did she teach there? SMHM: No, she was a house Sister. She was too old, really. SVMF: So you're there for two years, is that right? No, '54 to '59 you're there. SMHM: I was there five years. SVMF: Five years, that's right. Then you're sent to St. Albert the Great. SMHM: That's right, but at Albert the Great I was just there, I was a teacher there. SVMF: But you were in junior high? SMHM: I was in junior high teaching, yes. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 7 �SVMF: How did you feel about that, going from principal to junior high? SMHM: Well, I think that was the way we did it in those days. You were a principal six years less or more, and then you went back into teaching. SVMF: I see, yes. SMHM: I remember that marvelous, marvelous idea. No one got a big head at all. SVMF: So you're at St. Albert's and you're teaching there for a while and just a couple of years there, right? SMHM: I think I was there one or two years. SVMF: '59 to' 61, so just two years, and then they're sending you to Saint Leo's, Detroit, and here it says," server, community, diocesan, elementary." What does that all mean at Saint Leo's? SMHM: I was a supervisor. SVMF: Oh, a supervisor, that's what you were.. SMHM: I left Alberts, and they sent me to be a diocesan supervisor in Detroit. And Father Haken, Monsignor Haken was the head of it, and I was joined by Sisters from the IHM. And we all met frequently, I think every two weeks , and we had to give reports of what we did and what we saw and what suggestions we had, and so I really enjoyed that because I learned so much, and those IHMs are really school people. SVMF: Are they? SMHM: They really are, the Detroit group, anyway. SVMF: And you're living at St. Leo's, downtown. SMHM: I live at St. Leo's. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 8 �SVMF: Among the poor. SMHM: We didn't have cars in those days. SVMF: No. SMHM: So we went every place, if I had a meeting downtown with the group I went by bus. I met every single Sister of Charity from all the diocese. Now at that time the Detroit diocese was huge. Then they finally made a Lansing diocese. `But that came after my day. SVMF: So when you were there you had this huge diocese that you had to supervise? SMHM: I had to supervise. SVMF: This was the elementary? SMHM: All elementary, yes. SVMF: Oh, my heavens, what a job! SMHM: Well, I mean elementary schools. I don't mean all elementary. But anyway, so that was a tremendous experience, and one time they had a panel, and they picked the teachers for it on the TV. We were on TV. I was one of them, and we each had to say what we were doing and what we thought about education. SVMF: Good heavens! SMHM: And it was wonderful because TV. wasn't out very long. And so we all felt kind of good about that. And all the Sisters, now at this time it was the Sisters at the Shrine. I don't know how this happened. SVMF: Well, you're at St. Leo's, aren't you here? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 9 �SMHM: I went out of St. Leo's; well I guess I was there supervising some of the things. SVMF: And then you went to St. Charles, Kettering, as principal. SMHM: But I want to tell you that the Sisters at that Shrine were so humble. I think I want to go back to that. They were so humble, so beautiful, and we had Mother Coughlin at that time. And she lived in the garage behind the Sisters' convent. And we had to take turns, we didn't have to, we volunteered to take turns to sit with Mother Coughlin. Father Coughlin loved his mother so much that he could not put her in a nursing home. So he built that garage, and some of the Sisters were up above, and Eugene [Fox] was one of them, and oh, the name is almost on my lips. But anyway there were four bedrooms up above this garage, and the one who sat with Mother Coughlin, and she wouldn't go to bed until about 12:00 at night. She loved wrestling. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: Oh my gosh, and here I was a poor little me, I'm back at Royal Oak, and poor little me trying to correct my papers and everything, and if she saw out of the corner of her eye that you were correcting papers, oh, she'd hit them, and she'd want you to watch that thing with her. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: And then we'd push the piano, she had a baby grand. Every night we'd push it over to the front door, and every night we'd put her to bed, and then sometimes she'd wake up, and she'd say, "William Henry, she did this, that William Henry." And that was Henry Miriam. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: But she didn't like her. So Henry Miriam got out of that job. SVMF: Was the piano at the door so that no one would come in? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 10 �SMHM: That's right, see, and in our room, we had a room not quite next to hers at all, but down. And when she would get into a tantrum like that, she would come to your door. Well, see, we had another door, and we would ring a bell, and someone from upstairs would come down and help us. SVMF: Oh, my, oh, what an experience, my heavens. SMHM: It was because she was not all herself. SVMF: Sure, so shall we go on to St. Charles, Kettering? You're a principal now. SMHM: St. Charles, Kettering is after something or other. SVMF: After you were the diocesan supervisor. SMHM: Oh, that's right, I went there. SVMF: Yes, but now you're a principal. SMHM: And so we bought books and we did everything. These were very, very intelligent people and very rich. And they were very nice and polite and everything. SVMF: You're the principal there. SMHM: Yes. SVMF: At St. Charles, the elementary. SMHM: I opened St. Charles. SVMF: Oh, you opened it, oh my heavens. SMHM: Yes, I opened St. Charles, and I opened Birmingham. I also bought books and things when I was a supervisor for St. Mary's in Port Huron. You had to do all those little things. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 11 �SVMF: We'll put that all in. You'll hear it, so you'll see. After St. Charles then you go to St. Luke's, Detroit. SMHM: Yes, that was my respite, see. You didn't stay as a principal, you had six years. SVMF: Six years, now this is two years at St. Luke's, now? SMHM: Yes, I taught at St. Luke's, Detroit for a couple of years. And there was a very precocious principal. She had done work downtown in reading. SVMF: In Detroit? SMHM: Yes, this is St. Luke's, Detroit, but I think she might have been in Cincinnati. SVMF: Oh, all right. SMHM: She was a famous reading expert. SVMF: What I'll do is I'll go to the Archives and find out who was the reading expert in Cincinnati at that time, and I think we can fill in these times. SMHM: And I think for a while Bobbie was with her. SVMF: Bobbie Good. SMHM: Bobbie Good. SVMF: Maybe she could help us too. SMHM: I don't think they got along. I think that's what happened. So, we'd better leave it. SVMF: The next is Elizabeth Seton, South Holland, High School Religion. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 12 �SMHM: Yes, I went to the University of Detroit, and I was finishing there, and I sat next to this wonderful Sister, just a beautiful Sister, who was at Shrine High School. And we were in the same Theology class. I had to make up a Theology class to get to go to South Holland. SVMF: Yes, because it says High School Religion, that's what you did at South Holland. SMHM: I know it. But see I needed… SVMF: Yes, I mean that's why you needed. . . . SMHM: I needed refreshing courses in Theology to be able to do that. And so I went to University of Detroit during the summer. And there I met Ann Seubert. So Ann Seubert was a charming person. SVMF: Oh, yes. SMHM: And she said, "Sister," she shared with me, and that was something she didn't usually do with people. And she said, "Sister, I'm having a hard time at Shrine. I wish I could go someplace else." And I said, "Oh, Ann, I know just the place. You go to South Holland, I'm going there, and you can come right along. But you'd better get that principal to. . . " You know you had to make a bid, and see if there was room. And she taught Religion too. We shared then after school. It was so pleasant, and there was a young man there, brilliant, he was a Ph.D. And he taught the tenth grade. And he came in, and he liked both of us. And he said, "One day, Sisters, you think I'm a Catholic, my whole family is. I'm one of ten children . But I have my Ph.D., and I have it in Religion, but I no longer believe, Sister. " And I said, "Well, then how are you teaching this tenth grade?" And he said, "Sister, I went through all the books, and all it is is Social Studies." And he said, "So I told Sister that I could take the job." Well, to make a long story short, he was with us very often after school. He cleaned our boards. He was just a perfect gentleman. But the thing was after we left there, Ann Seubert and I, and Sister [Ruth] Dolores [Schneider], well, we got this bug about going out and being with the people and sharing our Faith and ©Sisters of Charity Archives 13 �doing this and that. And, my gosh, the three of us decided that we would go and be Parish Ministers and that we'd take Adult Education, also. SVMF: That’s when you went to Florence. SMHM: I went to Florence. Florence is where we went. SVMF: St. Benedict's. SMHM: And they had trailers, and we went to the people and did all kinds of things…. SVMF: Today is November 13, 2018, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, am back in Sister Mary Helen McKenna's room in Mother Margaret, and Sister would like to add a few things that were very important. Sister Mary Helen, you wanted to talk to us about Father Coughlin's mother. SMHM: Now Father Coughlin loved his mother dearly. He did not want to put her in a nursing home. So Sister William Mary [O'Connor] and Sister Henry Miriam [Miller] assured him that the Sisters would take care of her. So everybody was asked if they would sit in the evening from 5:00 on until the next morning with Mrs. Coughlin, who really had some problems with her mind. SVMF: Did she live in a special place? SMHM: Oh, yes. Father built a lovely garage for the Sisters to use down the road on one side. And the top part had lovely rooms for the Sisters, who would not sit with Mother, but would come to help anyone who was having a problem with Mother downstairs. And then there was a special button that we pushed if we needed help. SVMF: Those are the Sisters who live on the same floor as Mrs. Coughlin? SMHM: No, just you, the person with her and herself, that's all. And so you took care of everything, and of course she hadn't eaten because this was after 5:00. Well, anyway, the thing goes this way. If you needed help, and many a time you needed help, because she might come after you! I'm joking. But anyway so we ©Sisters of Charity Archives 14 �pressed the button, and down came Sister Philomena [Marie Funni] or Sister Eugene [Fox], and I forget really who the third one was. SVMF: You said that you were trying to correct papers, and she liked to watch wrestling on TV. SMHM: Yes, and during the evening she'd turn on the TV, and it was wrestling. She loved wrestling. And you'd be sitting on the couch there with her and you'd be trying to be correcting your papers and that was my first year in high school, and I thought, "My gosh, I don't think I'm going to get all these done" because she'd interrupt; she'd look out of the corner of her eye, and if you were doing papers she wanted you to watch the wrestling. SVMF: Then you also said that she wanted the baby grand piano pushed against the door. SMHM: Oh, she had a beautiful baby grand piano, and at night she and you would push the piano over to the front door, so that no one would come in. So the Sister really was locked in, and that's why in her bedroom there was this button you could push. And of course it was needed many a time, and you just had to leave Mother alone then. She didn't like Henry Miriam, and she was the one that got all this going. She didn't like her because Henry Miriam was a little bossy. And she tried to clean up her bed and fix her drawers and, oh, she didn't like that at all. These were personal to her. Well anyway, whenever she got mad at any Sister that was with her and got very upset, she'd call her Henry Miriam, she'd call her Miriam Henry and we'd all knew or it would be William Mary. She'd call her name out, whenever she didn't like what was going on. And it was not really to be made fun of, but it was a serious thing, and the Sisters really were generous in giving their time to take care of her. SVMF: The other thing that you said you wanted to include and go back a little bit to was the Athenaeum and especially Sister Generosa [Quinn]. SMHM: Oh, Sister Generosa! Sister Generosa, that name should be remembered by every Sister of Charity from then until beyond whatever the end comes. She was a marvelous teacher, and I'd like to say that anything that I did good in teaching was all part of my experience with Sister Generosa. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 15 �SVMF: I've heard wonderful things about her too. I was too late to get her when I went to the Athenaeum, but she still had a wonderful reputation. What did she teach? SMHM: She taught, I think it was, Psychology. I think that's what she taught. And she was a great friend of Sister Henrietta, a Mercy who was a real to notch teacher in Math. We all had Math from her, and we had Sister Generosa. I mentioned what she taught. And then we had another marvelous teacher, Father Kaeneke. Now Father Kaeneke wouldn’t be a master as a teacher. He sat at his desk, and he poured forth all kinds of knowledge and philosophy, the Sacraments, we had those from him. We had everything the Church from him. We had all our Religion programs from him, and the best of all was his Psychology. His teaching of that, he was a marvelous teacher, but every Sister or priest that went to the Athenaeum when they came to testing time, you had to say if you left out the letter "a" that would mean something different, and you would not get a very good mark. He'd check that answer off. SVMF: I told you that the fun thing that we had from Father Kaeneke years later was that funny saying that, "She who does not toot her own horn, that horn remaineth untooteth." And we always laughed about that. Well, Sister Mary Helen, how about. . .? SMHM: Can I say one thing about Armin Cooper? SVMF: Oh, sure. SMHM: Armin Cooper was in my band, and we were at the Athenaeum , and she in my mind was the smartest woman in the Community. Well, Father Konecke tested all of us with this question, he said, "What was the greatest miracle of all time?" Now, Victoria, I don't know if you had that question. SVMF: No. SMHM: All right. Well, the priests would say, "Oh, the Mass"; we'd give all kinds of answers. And no, no, no, no, but Armin, who was so humble, put her hand up just a little bit, and of course he called on her, and she said, "The Church." Now I have ©Sisters of Charity Archives 16 �said that, repeated her answer was to his question many, many times, and if you really think about everything and think deeply, these other things all come with the Church, and the Church itself is God's work on earth. Jesus is the head of the Church. And he nearly, I think he always used that question just to get people thinking, "Well, you're not so smart." But he nearly fell off the chair that she said that because he had never had the right answer. (Excerpt omitted: Sister Mary Helen discusses a parish ministry in Florence, Colorado)…. SMHM: We had wonderful success with the people. SVMF: Oh, wonderful. SMHM: They were Hispanic, and they were so beautiful. And really the charismatic movement, they gained it from us. However, the three of us were really at it, you know, as charismatics. SVMF: Yes. SMHM: But we had prayer meetings, and oh, gosh, they prayed, and I thought to myself, in God's eyes I haven't been praying, you know? They were just so beautiful, and we were very successful. We went to all the trailer courts, and we weren't successful in conversions, though, but we were successful in being nice to the people and the people welcoming us. SVMF: Sister Ruth Bockenstette said she went down for some of your prayer meetings. About three times, she said. SMHM: Would she agree to what I said? SVMF: Oh, definitely, yes. So what happens, you finally leave there? You're only there for one year, right? SMHM: Yes. SVMF: And then you move on to St. Mary's. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 17 �SMHM: Well, Sister Ruth Dolores had already been at St. Mary's, and so they welcomed me as an addition. And in that way I saw all the beauty of the West, you know. We were able to drive the car up to Denver. We went to meetings up there, and we saw Santa Fe and knew the history of it. SVMF: But that's you and Sister Ruth Dolores. Sister Christopher[Ann Seubert]? SMHM: Sister Ann Seubert was in Pueblo and worked there among the people. She really was a good friend of the Bishop. SVMF: She didn't stay in that house? SMHM: She wasn't, but she became a good friend of the Bishop. SVMF: Did she stay in that house? SMHM: Oh, no, no, she went to Pueblo itself, not Florence. She didn't stay in Florence, she went to Pueblo. SVMF: Okay, and you two went to St. Mary's. SMHM: And we went to St. Mary's [Albuquerque] because Sister Dolores had been there, and I hadn't been any place, so I went there. SVMF: Were you teaching English there in junior high. SMHM: Yes, it was the ninth grade. They only went to the ninth grade. And, oh I met, Carita, am I saying the name right? She was Hispanic but she wouldn't say Hispanic, she wanted to be Castilian. SVMF: Sarita, Sister Sarita? SMHM: Sarita, that's who I'm talking about. She was a partner to me in the school. I taught English and Religion, and I don't know what else. I didn't teach Math, that's for sure. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 18 �SVMF: You were there for one year, and then you moved to Christ the King in Pueblo as a Pastoral Coordinator. SMHM: Sister Martha [Farlow] was at Christ the King in Pueblo. And they were quite wealthy people. They were just below the university. And they were very upset with the Bishop at that time because-- I forget his name. I don't forget it but I can't remember it right this minute. And, anyway, he had just closed all the schools in Pueblo, every school. Now he was a convert to the Faith, and that could have been somewhat of his thinking, you know. Anyway, he closed every school in Pueblo. So Sister Martha was working as we were working, but she was up at the University [of New Mexico] area. And she came down to Pueblo and asked if we would, you know, come and help her out because she needed help. There were so many kids, and it had been for a while that he had closed all those schools, and they didn't know their Religion. And Martha was a very marvelous teacher, really, and so we went up there, and Ann Seubert was up there, so she asked if she could again live with us. And so she lived with us in the house that was given us, and we taught at the place. SVMF: It says here that you were Pastoral Coordinator, Religious Education teacher and . . . SMHM: That's right. And my big thing was curriculum, so I did that, and of course you had to type up the lessons. You had to do all that. And they were both very high up in Theology. So we had these University people that were very wealthy. They were furious with the Bishop. They had just built a school, can you imagine it? And they were furious, but they brought them down for CCD, and Sister Ruth Dolores took all the high school kids, and I took all, not all, I took a certain portion of the grade school and so did. . . . SVMF: Ann? SMHM: No, no not Ann Seubert. Ann Seubert worked for the Bishop in the city, the Bishops's work, but she lived with us, see. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 19 �SVMF: You were there for two years, and then it says you went to Sacred Heart School in Colorado Springs. SMHM: Yes, we were there for two years. We had the pastor who is in all kinds of education. Especially when you're teaching just Religion, you know, you're part of the same new wrinkle. The pastor, we had a hard time, so we left and went to Pauline Memorial [Colorado Springs]. They were so happy to have us. We went to Sacred Heart first. And then we went to Pauline Memorial, and from Pauline Memorial I returned back to my home. SVMF: Right here at the College. SMHM: Here at Mount Saint Joseph. SVMF: And so you taught at the college, Early Childhood Education for one year? SMHM: I did that in the summer time. I didn't teach at the College; I don't remember, maybe I did. Is it down there? SVMF: It says that you went from August 20, 1978, to June of 1979. So that looks like one year at the college, Early Childhood. SMHM: Oh, I know; it was the Campus School. SVMF: Oh, the Campus School, oh, that's wonderful. SMHM: Sister Marilyn Joseph [Czarnecki] was the principal, and it was an experimental school. Oh, man, was it updated, and it was wonderful. And I got to make the room that I was teaching in, I got to put the sun in it, painting , the whole wall was painted with sunshine, did you see it? SVMF: Yes, I did. And the halls were always full of light. SMHM: And Sister had a big, big bear at the door. Well, Sister was very, very wonderful as principal of these experimental things that went on there. Sister Marilyn Joseph was an excellent, excellent teacher, but she was also an excellent ©Sisters of Charity Archives 20 �principal, and they had marvelous teachers that loved to experiment. Now that's what that meant. That was the College's experimental school. SVMF: And then it says you went to St. William's from there for quite a while. SMHM: Oh, I wanted my last years in education with at least the neglected or the poor or maybe becoming or the school rundown. Now St. Williams was not run down. Oh, my gosh, it hit me in the head. The thing is Lower Price Hill was beginning to infiltrate, so it really was a city school. It was close to the city, and I taught there, I think five years. SVMF: 1979 to 1984, you're right. And then you went to St. Boniface. SMHM: That's when I really wanted to be in the inner city schools. And, oh there was a wonderful, wonderful principal there, Joanne Geis. Oh my gosh, she was good. And she was wonderful. She checked on the teachers. The teachers were excellent not because they were excellent maybe when they got there, but they were surely excellent after they had been there. And she checked everything, and what I liked about that for the inner city school and really for all education at the elementary level it should be no different than at the high school level. We should have beautiful plays. We should have beautiful,. . . Everything should be based on Thomas Aquinas's "Search for the truth, love the beauty, love beauty, all beauty, and the last one, goodness." Always appreciate goodness no matter where it's at, the furniture or whatever or the person, especially the person. Now those three things at every school that I was in I used that on the stationary at the very bottom of the stationary sheet. SVMF: How good. SMHM: "We excel in directing ourselves toward truth, beauty and goodness." SVMF: Oh, my. You can't get better than that. SMHM: And that is not for college, that is for first grade. And every class should have all the things that pertain to those three levels. And each person, each teacher should try to have those within their own lives because as Thomas said, those make you truly human. Try to develop those things. But see it brings it to ©Sisters of Charity Archives 21 �schools that you have plays. You have little plays in the classroom. You have kids stand up and try to make a play all on its own. You see and get partners to help and put on a little show. You know, we used to do that in our neighborhood. SVMF: We did too in the garage. SMHM: That's right. Now in our neighborhood one of the men was a carpenter. Now I lived in the Depression era. But this man was a carpenter and had pretty good people coming to him. But he built a doll house but it was big enough that we could stand up in it, and three or four people could be in it. And so what we did, the girl's name was Harriet, and she was my friend. She lived across the street and they were wonderful nonCatholics. They were Episcopalian. Not that, they were Presbyterians. But, anyway, we would put on plays and invite the neighborhood, and they had to bring pennies to come to our play. And I'll never forget we got people from outside too. We got my friend from school, Regina Miller and a Helen Daly. These were from school. See, we went out beyond our own little neighborhood, and she had people, and we would make the play up. That's the big thing. And we would tell them their parts, or we would sit down some day and write down the parts for them. But the funny part was, this was about a king, and Helen Daly was kind of a big person, so she [was king], and Regina Miller was sort of slender and thin, and Regina Miller took the part of King, not Helen Daly. And of course we had an audience out there. But Helen Daly got so mad she pulled the rug out from under poor Regina, and she hit her head against the wall. Then we tried to make that part of the play. SVMF: Oh dear! Yes, that’s how we did. SMHM: You did plays too. SVMF: Oh, absolutely. Rright in our garage, and we have pictures of us all dressed up. SMHM: That's for creativity right there in your back yard. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 22 �SVMF: Now, that's so true. Now from St. Boniface it says here that you went to the Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center in the teaching program, "Church Life." That needs explanation. SMHM: I taught. When they accept you there at the hospital, the Children's Hospital, you see that was my final place, my final hurrah. I went there because I really, this is kind of. . . . I was going into my fiftieth or something. I was going into the fiftieth, and I didn't want a big fuss at St. Boniface, so I stopped, and I went to Children's Hospital. And that was the reason. But I was long enough there, and I contributed, and we put on a big, big play. SVMF: What does Church Life mean? It says you were there, Children's Hospital Teaching Program Church Life at the Hospital. It says here you were at Cincinnati Children's Hospital, and your job title was in the Teaching Program, Church Life. Church Life, I just wondered what that was. SMHM: That's a lay place, I mean that's not a Catholic place. I didn't teach any Church. . . . SVMF: They have mistakes here, so that must be a mistake. They have more than one. SMHM: Please correct that. SVMF: I will. SMHM: What I did there. . . . When you go to Children's at least at that time… SVMF: 87-95, that's a long time. SMHM: Eight years I think. Anyway, you teach anything. You are supposed to be able to teach anything from Grade 1 through Grade 12. See, the kids bring their own books. Now I didn't teach first grade, but I did teach kids that had this, I don't know what they called the temporary thing there. . . . They were trying to get them trained down. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 23 �I did teach a second grader there. But then I did teach some sick little children. I really don't know what grade they were in. But they were at least sixth or fourth grade, you know. But then I also taught them. . . . After I was there awhile, I was sent to the Oncology unit and that was the saddest thing, heartbreaking. It was really something. It made me so aware. They would come with their books. I would have to go to their room. They were not well enough to come anyplace, so I'd go to their room, and here they had. . . . They were ready for me. They had all their books stacked up. And we went book by book by book, and I thought to myself, "Here's these kids who don't have much more life in them, but they want to study. And the kids in school you have to fight with them to do work for you." SVMF: I know. It's so hard. SMHM: And that I think goes through all grade levels. But anyway, these children, oh, they wanted to learn, and you could do nice things with them to make them happy. SVMF: What a wonderful ministry. SMHM: It is. Then I had a boy, and his last name was Hoover. He was from Kentucky, and he was a senior. And he was the popular boy in the school because he was the chief football player. He was also tall, so he was the basketball chief one. And he was president of his class, senior class. Well, in February he kind of felt sick, and they sent him to Children's. His own doctor diagnosed him. It was cancer. So they sent him to Children's, and this tall, handsome young man I taught, and I can't tell you the blood-- He was memorizing his chemistry formulas- I can't tell you the blood was running down his eyes because of the Coumadin, see, and, my gosh, I just loved him whatever his first name was, Hoover. Weekends I didn't teach I went home. SVMF: Where was home? SMHM: Mount Saint Joseph, the Motherhouse. And so anyway one day I came back, and he had died. And someone said, one of the nurses said to me, "Sister, we had to do it this way." His mother would put this big boy on her lap and just hug him and rock him, you know, that kind of thing. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 24 �And here he was, and they called the mother apart one day, and they said to her, "Just tell him it's all right to go." And so she went back and told him, I'll say Bob. "Bob, it's all right to go." And do you know, he looked at her, and he died. He died in her arms. Isn't that sad? I went to the funeral. I mean the wake, I went to the wake. And he wanted for Christmas a cowboy hat and big boots, and that's what they had for him. They put the hat on his chest and the boots were on him. SVMF: You had some very touching experiences there. SMHM: Oh, my and then we had at the university, they were decorating or doing something to where they put the people who are mentally distracted, and, my gosh, didn't they give me charge of these boys. They were like ten feet tall as far as I was concerned. And I had to teach them. SVMF: Is this at Children's also? SMHM: Yes it is. And see, so I had to teach them, but they wouldn't be taught. So I forgot everything, and I said, "Let's play pool." So they played pool, and, boy, they taught me. Oh, they were happy to teach me. I kept trying to hit those balls. You hit one ball and three balls go in. I didn't do that, they did. And then they had, there was another big game there that they played that they could jump on the ceiling, and they could jump on the walls, and they could shoot people. Oh my, it was terrible. What was in that thing? But two or three of them would get together, and they would get these things in their hands, and they would push all these men in the TV all around. SVMF: Like those games. SMHM: Yes, those games that you really shouldn't watch. SVMF: Well, you were there from '87 to '95, but that wasn't your last hurrah. It says here that then you were at Presentation Ministries. As a coworker for Presentation. Those are those little books that came out? SMHM: Oh, yes that was Father, oh, he was a saint. Father, you'll get the name, won't you? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 25 �SVMF: I will. [Father Albert E. Lauer] I know they did it in Spanish. I always got the Spanish books, English and Spanish. SMHM: He wrote all kinds of books. And he was a saint, he really was. It was at the same time that another saint priest died, and his name was something, you can look that up, like Whimple. SVMF: Willig, how about Willig? SMHM: That's it, Willig. And he had a prominent family, so he got a lot of attention. Poor Father Lauer. I think I got the name right. He was at Old St. Mary's and working like a dog, you know. SVMF: What did you do there at Presentation? SMHM: At Presentation Ministries every day we would go, and people would mail in that they wanted, certain book, and then we would mail the books out. That's what I did there. And then upstairs I helped with the ones that were in charge. I helped them do things. SVMF: This is at St. Mary's downtown? SMHM: No, Father Lauer was at Old St. Mary's downtown. But his Presentation Ministries was I think on Kensington Avenue in Cincinnati. And how they got this Presentation Ministries was Father Lauer, I hope I'm saying it right, Father Lauer was a brilliant man, and he made all these books and things, when he was the pastor at Presentation Church, but the Bishop closed it because it was a small parish. And then the group there wanted to still be together, and so they founded what they called Presentation Ministries. And that's popular, I guess all over the state. SVMF: It says that you were there for five years. SMHM: Yes, I was, but, see, I was doing more clerical things. SVMF: But you were still working. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 26 �SMHM: I was passing good education. See, the books were very bold. Somebody really ought to try to add more. They were more leaflets, you know. SVMF: Yes, I used to have them because they had them in English and Spanish, and I always wanted to read everything I could in Spanish to keep Spanish up. And they were good. SMHM: He was on the radio too, you know. SVMF: Well, then finally, finally you retired, and you came back to the Motherhouse? SMHM: Yes, and I, well, I came back to the Motherhouse, and what I really did was get some materials that would be ethnic and had music and stories with it, the language, but I couldn't speak the language, of course. But the thing is I went to different rooms, and I remember Gertrudis [Pfeiffer] especially. She was from Germany, came over when she was five years old and she was very tall, and she was a wonderful, wonderful nurse. And, however, she wasn't thinking fully straight, and she was ill too. SVMF: She was in Mother Margaret? SMHM: She was in Nursing. And that's where I went, the Nursing in Mother Margaret. And I went to her room, and she was an opera soprano. Yes, she was. And you never heard her sing? SVMF: No. SMHM: Oh, my gosh. Well, anyway, she would sing, so I found these German books, you know, and the leaflets and things, anything German, and I'd go to her room. I'd say, "Did you ever hear of this?" And she'd look at the book, and say, "Oh, yes." And I said, "Can you sing a German song?" I would have something there. And it was easy to get the German stuff. Anyway, she'd look at the song, and then she'd look , and she'd sing this German song. Oh, I heard her all over the floor. And the people, the help, would come out to hear her, you know, and of ©Sisters of Charity Archives 27 �course she couldn't see them because she was facing the window. And they all loved that. And I thought this is wonderful. So the next day I thought I'm going to go back. Well, I went back, and she'd say about the song, "Oh I haven't sung that in years." And then she'd sing it, and then the people would come. Well, that was enough because we'd had enough. And the next thing now, I didn't have any friends, and I didn't have any friend, Sisters either but German and Irish. And I don't know what else there is. SVMF: So that was your ministry then. SMHM: It was a ministry for me to have music, and if they were artists or something, they could do some art, any of the nice things that would be of beauty. SVMF: And now you're here, and I would just like to ask you about your life , and what you think about religious life now and in the future maybe. SMHM: Well, I'm very conservative, and I feel that the Sisters are doing wonderful work. However, I don't recognize some of it. But I know they're doing good work because people are improving their lives because of them. And there is one that is dead. The funeral will be tomorrow or is it today? SVMF: It's today, Mary Lou Knapke. SMHM: Her name is Mary Lou Knapke, and her life has had a lot of different turns, and at the end people say now, "See, I don't know her or what she has been doing up to the present, it was a sudden death, beautiful work. Another Sister, who was before her in death, was Sister Elizabeth Cashman, who was in the College and did all kinds of different work there. SVMF: And she also worked with Hospice. SMHM: Oh, did she? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 28 �SVMF: Yes. SMHM: She worked at Hospice, my goodness. SVMF: I find out so much when they give the reflection at their funeral. You find out, oh my goodness, you know. Today Father Boltman, the Jesuit, who's in charge of the Retreat House, and he has Bellarmine Chapel. He wrote a beautiful response to Mary Lou's death. Here's what he said: "She was such a good gift to so many of us Jesuits. I always felt on the same page with Mary Lou. She was turning the page and calling me on. This is not the kind of person that you think will suddenly just not be there. And I'm sorry not to be with everybody today at the funeral. She always made clear, 'We do what we can.' Thanks to God for her.' Richard Boltman, Jesuit, SJ." Wasn't that a beautiful tribute. She got one tribute-- it will be a big crowd today for her funeral--but listen. . . . SMHM: May I just say one more thing? There are many other Sisters of humbler background that are really the saints of the Community. Sister Ann Loretto [Connell] is one. And there are many, many more whose names are just names, but they are beautiful Sisters of Charity. SVMF: Do you want to say anything about the Church, Mary Helen? What's your future plan? What do you think about the future of the Church? SMHM: Oh well, Pope Francis is a pope for these times. There are some things that for us, me, might be questionable about people going to Holy Communion and not being fully Catholic. And there are other questions too, but I'm not capable of talking about them now. But I feel that people love simplicity, and that Pope Francis is, and he took the name Francis, and I think in Spirit he is very close to him. SVMF: And he's a Jesuit. SMHM: And he's a Jesuit. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 29 �SVMF: I know you could hardly have a better combination; that's an interesting thing. SMHM: That's it. And I really think. . . . I listen to his homilies. I listen to his Mass on Sunday, and, oh gosh, you can tell he's a Jesuit. He must have majored in literature or something. SVMF: Well, Sister Mary Helen, I don't want to stop your oral history without you having said everything you want to. But you can always add thing; we can always add if you think of something else. SMHM: Well, there's one thing. Remember at Shrine I was telling about Grace Miriam made me do everything practically, and she gave me. . . to open up, I want to say, "You can fix this up." SVMF: In the school? SMHM: You know where the kids make decisions. SVMF: Counseling? SMHM: No, not counseling. Well, anyhow, I'll let you know later. Anyway, she put me in charge of this, so I had to organize this group, and they were very much wanting to do this. And of course they were children that were in wealthy areas in Royal Oak, Michigan. And they were kind of spoiled and on the risqué side. But anyway we put on this talent show, and, oh, they all wanted this, and they were all wanting to be in it, and they were the preferred. Well, these boys, there were four of them, were harmonizing, and they were singing, "We're poor little lambs," that song, and all of a sudden the back doors of the auditorium opened, and there was Father Coughlin with Sister Grace Miriam. Now in this area, the Royal Oak area and the other area, I can't remember what it's called, but they were all one. It was Birmingham and something else. Well, anyway, Father Coughlin was stuttering, he was mad, and he came up to the front of the auditorium, and he blasted the whole group, all the kids that were there for the talent show, and the people that were on the stage. And he turned and let them know that they weren't hiding behind his back. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 30 �SVMF: Is this at the actual performance, the actual performance with the audience? SMHM: The actual performance, the whole school was there. All right, so anyway, the problem was that in this area were wealthy people, wealthy kids. They were writing bad words on doors, and they were doing other things, and some of ours were in on it. And that's when he said, if ever he finds these people, "After my talk, I'm going to do something to you." Then out he marched, and out goes Grace Miriam with him. So the door closed in the back, and I didn't know whether to pull the curtain, or what to do, or go on with the program. So I opened-- we had closed it, and now I opened it, and here were the same kids, same boys. See, they were all seniors, and here they were, and I thought, "Oh, now surely now they'll start another song." No, no. "We're poor little lambs that have gone astray." They finished this song that they started. And they were poor little lambs, I'm telling you. SVMF: Oh dear, I'm glad that you got that in. SMHM: Is that all right? SVMF: Yes, that's wonderful. SMHM: You can take it out. SVMF: No, no, I'd never take that out or take anything out. I want to thank you just from the bottom of my heart for such a refreshing and such an enriching oral history. SMHM: I just hope it was all right. SVMF: I wanted to get an educator in our oral history as part of our history of the Sisters of Charity, and who better could do that than you. SMHM: Did I do enough of it? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 31 �SVMF: Oh my, you certainly did and such a variety of missions and ministries. SMHM: Another thing I'm going to say about education, a good teacher reads all the writings that are updated for education. SVMF: Yes. SMHM: A good teacher has those among her library books. And a good teacher, I think, is a totally alive, and I really mean we're alive with Christ within us. But the point is what you mean outside of that. They're not sitting at their desk; they're down with the kids, they're looking over the papers that the kids are writing. They're helping them. They're doing lots of things. You're not just sitting at the desk or sitting up there eating an apple on top of the desk while the kids are writing. Really, I know that they have to write, and they have to take tests, but by the same token the rest of the time that they're not doing that there should be active and lively activity in the room. Even if all you want to do is what we did when we were kids, have some of them come up in the front of the room and make a little play right on the spot. SVMF: Just keep active, intellectually too of course. SMHM: Don't put that in if you don't think I didn't speak very well. SVMF: I think you spoke very well. SMHM: I'm more talking to you. SVMF: No, I think that's part of your oral history. That's very important advice for all of us who are teachers or who will be teachers, most definitely. SMHM: The Sisters really did do that. SVMF: I just want to thank you and I'll turn off the recorder with a deep heartfelt thanks for all you have shared. SMHM: Any of this bad stuff I am telling you. . . . ©Sisters of Charity Archives 32 �SVMF: I don't think there is any bad stuff; it's excellent. Thank you again. What a wonderful oral history, what a treasure we have. Thank you so much. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 33 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McKenna, Sister Mary Helen, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 32 Minutes 8 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Helen McKenna, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC November 12, 2018 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Mary Helen McKenna by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKenna, Sister Mary Helen, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/12/2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Laverty, Jackene (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Helen McKenna, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC November 12, 2018 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1920-2018 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f5b4074a66a4baf116981d2746774065.jpg 69cf7465c097cce7242e640553e6bbed https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/167f3d14cf8723c590df43c1d34b1e3e.mp3 663d459c2ad8160dd444be143cff0864 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/54feb333b47dc9ec5a3fc1c908cdfbb4.pdf 1bba31cae3e2d4f66eb9a81f8ea8d3a3 PDF Text Text TAPE #110 SISTER MARY EMMA McKINLEY INTERVIEWED BY: Sister Sally Duffy on August 19, 1978 Born March 28, 1893 in Cleveland, Ohio I had a very happy home-life. My dear mother and father created a home of happiness. We were nine children, I am the second youngest. When I spoke of entering the Community, my father was much disturbed. He wanted me to stay with them, but gradually, he changed his mind and gave his consent. He wasn’t happy to have me enter. I had a sister who had entered nine years ahead of me. When I entered I was two weeks short of 19 years old. WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO ENTER RELIGIOUS LIFE? I had had a craving to be a Sister for several years. I did have a little struggle to know where to go. Our Pastor wanted me to go to the Saint Joseph Sisters. He said: “You can lead as great a holy life here in Cleveland as you can in Cincinnati.” But, that didn’t satisfy me. So, I kept to my decision, and, thank God, I entered the Sisters of Charity. I entered on March 15, 1912. WHAT HAD BEEN YOUR CONTACT WITH THE CHARITIES? I had had the Sisters of Charity up to the sixth grade, then we moved to another parish and I had the Sisters of St. Joseph, so perhaps that was the cause for the little conflict. �WAS THERE ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY THAT DREW YOU TO THE SISTERS OF CHARITY? All I can say is the goodness and mercy of God that He directed me here. I have thanked Him many times for my religious vocation and especially to the Sisters of Charity. WAS THERE ANYONE IN PARTICULAR WHO INFLUENCED YOUR DECISION? No, I can’t say so. WHO WAS YOUR NOVICE MISTRESS? Sister Mary Teresa Troy was our Novice Mistress, and Sister Hyacinth Sullivan gave us our spiritual instructions. WHAT WAS YOUR NOVITIATE LIKE? It was what one would expect in religious life. It was not too easy, and yet, I loved every minute of it. We had regular instructions, prayers, domestic duties, many friends among the Novices and Postulants, a very kind Mistress. So, my Novitiate was very happy. YOU WERE NOVICE MISTRESS YOURSELF FOR MANY YEARS, IS THAT CORRECT? Yes, I was Novice Mistress from 1927 to 1933 then for one year I was with the Postulants only. �WAS THERE MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM YOUR OWN NOVITIATE AND YOUR POSTULANCY? No, I often say to my former Novices now, “How hard it must have been for you, but I went through the same thing and I could only give you what I, myself, had.” WAS THERE A CERTAIN STRUCTURE IN YOUR NOVITIATE? Very definitely. WHAT WAS THAT STRUCTURE LIKE? We were made acquainted with the Constitutions and our Praiseworthy Customs both of which are very beautiful. We had them read once a month so that we really got to know them. WHAT WAS THE SPIRIT LIKE AT THE TIME OF YOUR NOVITIATE? I think there was a deep spirit of prayer. We got along beautifully together, and yet, I don’t remember ever having any close, dear friends, but I still love my Novitiate friends. There are seven of them still living. �HOW MANY PEOPLE ENTERED THE COMMUNITY WITH YOU? Sister Agatha Eppley and I were the only two to enter on the same day. In the years gone by, girls entered on the day of their choice. We had planned to come on the feast of St. Joseph because I had a special devotion to St. Joseph, but my sister, Sister Agnes Joseph, was a school teacher and she couldn’t very well leave her classroom in the middle of the week to come down to Cincinnati with me. So, we entered the Friday before St. Joseph’s day, on the 15th of March. HAS THE SPIRIT OF THE COMMUNITY CHANGED OVER THE YEARS FOR YOU? No. For me, it has not, and I think for most of the older Sisters it has not... and even the middle aged Sisters. I think that the very young members have not had sufficient training in the Spirit to really know and love what it is. HOW MIGHT YOU SUGGEST THAT THE YOUNGER SISTERS BE TRAINED IN ORDER TO SHARE IN THE SAME SPIRIT THAT YOU SHARE? First of all, pray to the Holy Spirit asking Him to direct their spirit and give them the spirit of a true religious. I think we have always had a very beautiful family spirit in our Community. �ARE YOU FEARFUL THAT WE MAY LOSE THIS SPIRIT? I say, I don’t worry about the Community because I feel confident that the Sacred Heart is going to take care of our Community. Our Sisters have always been very devoted to the Sacred Heart, the Blessed Mother, and St. Joseph. And, yet, I am deeply concerned because I do feel that a much more worldly spirit has crept in. I can’t say that I blame anyone. I think that it is the spirit of the world creeping into religious life. HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? I finished my 66th year last month. AS YOU LOOK BACK ON THOSE 66 YEARS AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEM? WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN LIKE FOR YOU? They have been a fulfillment of my hopes. I have been very happy, very happy. DID YOU HAVE DIFFICULT TIMES, OR PAINFUL TIMES? Well, we all have our daily little worries about our duties and whether we are doing right or wrong. But, for the most part, I have had no real worries in the Community. �WHAT HAS IT MEANT FOR YOU TO BE A RELIGIOUS WOMAN FOR 66 YEARS? It has much meaning. I look back over the years and think only how wonderfully merciful God has been to me. I feel that my life has been one continued chain of blessings both spiritual and temporal. I especially look over those years as mirrors of total commitment and complete satisfaction. The only regret I have is that I am not far better than I am today, that I have not made better use of all the wonderful spiritual and temporal lessons God has bestowed upon me. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF COMMUNITY...WHAT DOES COMMUNITY MEAN TO YOU? I think that Community should be first of all dedication to the cause of God, it should be lived in common with the Sisters in a spirit of love and helpfulness. Our convents should be, and I hope are, homes of peace and happiness. I am very sorry to hear now of so many Sister living outside of the convents, in apartments, living privately. I don’t think that is community life. Community means working together. All of this must certainly have an effect on the prayer life of the Sisters. We need one another. �SO I HEAR YOU SAYING THAT COMMUNITY IS VERY MUCH THE PRAYER PART AND SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER. Not only in the prayer life, yes. Our prayer life must come first, but also, in our life as Sisters, real Sisters living together, loving one another, helping one another wherever we can. I am so often just overwhelmed with the kindness I see most of our Sisters showing to other Sisters, especially those who need help. HAS THE PRAYER LIFE OF THE SISTER OF CHARITY CHANGED DURING THE 66 YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? Well, that is a lot of personal questions and I can’t answer except for myself. I would say, for myself, no, it has not changed. In fact, if anything, it has increased and beautified. My community life means more to me today than ever. SAINT VINCENT HAD THE IDEA THAT FOR A SISTER OF CHARITY THE STREETS ARE HER CLOISTER. HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS IDEA? We do not have a cloister in the strict of the word, but by saying that the streets is our cloister means that even though we are mingling with the world at all times, meeting with people of all stations, we must be ready to help everybody and at the same time, live the life of a cloister in our own lives. This is the real spirit of recollection. I must admit that it is not easy to do this. It takes much practice, much hard work, much prayer, and a closeness to God. �KNOWING THE CHANGES SINCE VATICAN II AND ALL THE CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITY SINCE VATICAN II, DO YOU FEEL THAT THESE CHANGES HAVE MOVED US CLOSER TO THE PEOPLE, OR HAVE THEY MOVED US AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE? Well, I think taking off the religious habit has removed us from the people. I know, many Sisters say they can reach the people better in worldly clothes. But, I cannot agree with them. I have heard so many, many times, oh so many times, “Sister, it is so good to see you in a habit.” So, I really feel that the habit has a big part to play in our life as witnesses to the world. Then, too, our work among the sick, the poor, the lowly, little children, and people of all ranks, must draw others closer to God. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN NOVICE DIRECTOR AND ALSO POSTULANT DIRECTOR, WHAT OTHER APOSTOLIC MINISTRIES WERE YOU INVOLVED IN? Well, for twenty of those years, I was local Superior in several schools; I taught in the elementary grades, most of the time I taught the 8th grade. SO, MOST OF YOUR COMMUNITY LIFE WAS SPENT TEACHING? Yes. �WHERE WERE SOME OF THE PLACES THAT YOU WERE ON MISSION? Do you want to know all of them? SURE! St. Joseph’s, Dayton for 9 years; then, I went to St. Leo’s, Detroit, for 3 years; than down to Memphis, Tennessee in 1925; in 1927 I returned to the Motherhouse to take charge of the Novitiate and in 1933, the Postulate. In 1934 I was at St. Dominic’s School, it was a brand new school, just opened. There I had to teach 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. From there I went to Holy Angels, Sidney and to St. Luke’s, Detroit. In 1943, I was back in Dayton, but this time, at Sacred Heart School. Then I was one year at St. Elizabeth, Norwood. In 1950, I went to St. Joseph’s, Springfield, from there to Saint Savior, Rossmoyne for 6 years. Then I went to Annunciation School in Clifton for another 6 years. In 1966, I returned to the Motherhouse. I became a resident at Mother Margaret Hall in October of 1975, and I have been there ever since. Mother Margaret Hall is all that anyone could wish for in the way of a nursing home. Along with hospital care, we have real family life. There are over 200 hundred Sisters in Mother Margaret Hall at the present time. �WHEN YOU ARE OUT ON YOUR MISSION EXPERIENCES, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE A TEACHER MOST OF THE TIME. WERE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY OTHER TYPES OF WORK DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE TEACHING? Yes, I had charge of the servers, I guess that’s about all. WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR MOST MEMORABLE EVENT AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, WHAT STANDS OUT THE MOST IN YOUR MEMORY OF ALL YOUR YEARS OF BEING A SISTER OF CHARITY? One thing is the day we had permission to make perpetual vows. We made these in December of 1927. Up to that time, we had made vows for one year and renewed them each year. Mother Irenea requested Rome that we might make perpetual vows and all those Sisters who were in the Community long enough made perpetual vows. From that time on, it has been the custom for Sisters to make perpetual vows after their years of temporary profession which was usually from 5 to 6 years. WHO WERE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IMPORTANT IN YOUR LIFE DURING YOUR 66 YEARS, AND HOW WERE THEY IMPORTANT TO YOU? A great many people...my Superiors, my own friends, the pupils among those whom I taught... I guess that’s about it. �WHAT WAS IT THAT THEY DID TO MAKE THEM IMPORTANT TO YOU? Mostly their lives, they were persons of integrity, they had a love for the Community, and for God, and in general were really friends, helpful friends. A FEW MINUTES AGO, YOU READ TO ME A LIST OF ALL THE MISSIONS THAT YOU SERVED ON... THEY WERE QUITE NUMEROUS. WHICH WAS YOUR FAVORITE MISSION? I really can’t say. I liked every mission I was on. Some were easier than others but that didn’t matter. There was a spirit in the house and the joy of my vocation that made them all more or less the same. WERE YOU ON ANY MISSIONS WHERE THE SISTERS OF CHARITY ARE NO LONGER SERVING? Sacred Heart, Dayton is no longer on our list; St. Joseph, Springfield has only one Sister; St. Luke’s, Detroit no Sisters. DO YOU HAVE ANY PARTICULAR COMMUNITY STORY THAT YOU COULD SHARE WITH US? I think I’ve told you enough. �DID YOU SAVE ANY OF YOUR NOVITIATE NOTES? I don’t think I have them in writing, but I know that I have them in my heart because they were made so vivid to us that they made a deep impression. I thank God, along with my comrades, I think that we have kept them in our hearts all these years. YOU KNOW THAT I’M A NOVICE RIGHT NOW. WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST TO ME, THINGS THAT WOULD REALLY HELP ME, OR BENEFIT ME IN MY RELIGIOUS LIFE? WHAT KIND OF ADVICE COULD YOU GIVE TO ME? Well, that’s a big order. First of all, be serious about your vocation, realizing that after the gift of Faith, it is the greatest gift that God has given you. Be faithful to your prayers, your prayer life, the sacraments. What I would like to say is live a real community life, but I realize that on some conditions today, that is very hard. I think that a lot of people who are coming to religious life today are just as sincere, just as fervent as Sisters ever were. I think that they want the spirit of sacrifice, and I’m afraid that they are not getting it. The world has entered into the Community far too much. There is very little restraint on a young Sister of the present day. We have to have structure, we need Superiors to guide us, we need our companions, good faithful, holy souls to help us along the way. But it is all worth the trials, it is well worth all the difficulties you may encounter, and I only hope that our young people today will enter religious life with a strong determination to leave the world, and devote themselves to �Christ and His work. We must expect sacrifice. Christ has given us the best example. Is there anything He did not sacrifice for all of us? Be strong-hearted, determined to follow the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and beg Him every day to draw you closer to His sacred heart and to His blessed mother. WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN TO PULL THE COMMUNITY AWAY FROM THIS SPIRIT OF WORLDLINESS THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? I would like to see the new members of the Community spend their first days, months, and even a couple of years, at the Motherhouse. The Motherhouse of Mount Saint Joseph is truly our house of prayer. It is the home of the spirit of the Sisters of Charity and we all need that as a foundation before we are able to go out on our own. Strike your roots deep in religion. Don’t be looking out for anything that is easy. If we give ourselves to God, He will put us where we are needed, He will give us what we need to do the work He wants us to do, and surely we will be happy. �WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD DURING THOSE 66 YEARS? My relationship with God has been that of a child for my heavenly Father, trusting in the Sacred Heart and His Blessed Mother, and devotion to the Holy Spirit. Also, we are to go back to following the spirit of Mother Seton. We hear so much about the charism of Mother Seton. One of her charisms was devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. Formerly, it was a rule for all Sisters to spend one half hour adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, daily. Some have drifted away from this. We need Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, please go back to the habit of spending this time with Him. I know that if you were to read the Constitutions and Praiseworthy Customs as we knew them, as we still know them, you might think some were absurd, perhaps some little requirements were unnecessary. But for the most part every one played its own part in forming our character and educating us in the life of a religious and strengthening us against the temptations and the desires of the world. END OF TAPED INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37 Minutes 39 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Mary Emma McKinley by Sister Sally Duffy. The interview was conducted soon after Sister Sally entered the Community in 1977 and her subject, Sister Mary Emma, had previously served as a Mistress of Novices from 1927 to 1934. The discussion centers on the stark changes to formation and religious life in the United States during the twentieth century. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC; Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/19/1978 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912-1978 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Religious Formation Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/09366338ffce47c4f163096984974ecb.jpg d47ab2a4dd55c1a6eed50a7e90ab8e0b https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/44840e0dd065b28b50b74dba0e57ae7f.jpg 7c72be6058fcef629a10e17e4500120c https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/cc3a6732f8c227e5d0881844fe0eb400.pdf 57cd28526e13e6b18dd84960c376473c PDF Text Text REMEMBRANCE OF MY YOUTH by Sister Angelita Mombrado I was born in the village of Rippoli, the diocese of Bick, Province of Barcelona, Spain on the seventh of August, 1833. I was baptized in St. Maria’s church on the eighth of the same month and confirmed the following week. My parents were born and married in the same village. My father’s name was John Mombrado and my mother’s was Margarita Castain. My father was a confectioner by trade and that was his favorite occupation. He had a special affection for his little family. My parents were good and industrious Christians. God blessed their marriage with a family of three sons and four daughters. I was the first daughter and when scarcely eighteen months old used to give a great deal of trouble by going up and down the stairs and running over to see my grandmother who lived right opposite our place. One day while going down the stairs I fell and was seriously injured. I was very sick for some time. My parents were much grieved for they thought I would die. Every thing was prepared for my burial; and here I am today at the age of eighty-three a long way from my country. I remember my mother used to tell me it cost a great deal of gold to save me and that I was cured by a miracle. I often think how grateful I ought to be to God for having given me such good parents. After my recovery I would not sit any place but on the floor. They used to buy every kind of char and fancy stool for me to sit on, but I would not, for fear I would fall. When I was able to walk again and my mother saw I was growing strong and healthy, she put me in a school with the Nuns. The first lesson they gave me was in knitting stockings; that is the custom in Spain. The Nuns kept school in a private house because the persecutors had burned their convent. They used to iron the Church linens beautifully and I watched them instead of knitting. I was then about four years old. My mother was very pious. It must have been her prayers that obtained my cure. She used to take me to Mass every morning. One day she took me to see the ruins of the Nuns’ convent, so that I would remember it when I grew up. Very soon there was a war of the Carlos party in Spain and I remember a great many people came to our house to place themselves under the protection of our Blessed Mother, as we had an oratory. I was at this time about five years of age. The troops of soldiers came into our house ready to shoot anyone they met. My mother was confined to her bed with an infant three days old. The soldiers threw her out of her sick bed and injured her so badly that she was never well again. My dear father was hidden down in the cellar behind some barrels. The soldiers went down but did not find him. If they had 1 �found him they would have killed him. My mother, with all the invalids was taken to the church. My sisters and I were with our grandmother. After three days one of the good officers of the army approached my mother, asking her if he could do anything for her. My mother said, “Yes you can do something for me, but will you do it?” He said he would. Three times she asked him the same question, for she feared he would not do it. Then he said, “I give you my word.” My mother then said, “My husband has been in the cellar for the past three days and nights, bring him to me.” The officer went and called my father from a window opening on the street. As my father did not answer he called him by name, saying, “Come out I know you are there, your wife sent me for you.” My father came out wrapped in a black cloak and said, “My life for the love of God.” The officer led him to the Church pretending he was an invalid. Then my family left the city and went to a village to live with a family who were our friends. My mother was so ill that she has no nourishment for the infant and when passing over the river on the way to the village she dipped up some water in her hand and gave it to the baby. They were unable to find out what happened to the other four children. My brother was stripped of his beautiful velvet suit and left naked in the street; some of the soldiers wanted to kill him but the others said, “No we have what we want.” My sister and I were with our grandmother. In passing through the streets we saw the dead bodies of the victims lying about in thick streams of blood. My father’s store which was one of the finest was entirely destroyed and he was never able to recover it. When we all got together again we went to Barcelona. Every little while war would break out and we would be obligated to leave the city in order to save our lives. My mother put me in school but it was of no use; the war would break out and the teacher would tell us to run home. So I had very little opportunity to continue school. I was hardly eight years old when my mother died. Already capable of feeling this sacrifice, it seemed to me that our Lord had some special design upon me. When I was about twelve years of age, I made my first Communion in the church of St. Augustine, in Barcelona. It was the day the children of the Parish made their First Communion. I went to confession and the pastor asked me if I had made my First Communion. I said, “ No Father.” He took me into the sacristy and after examining me told me I could make my First Communion. I was delighted and my father was very much pleased and relieved. He would always remind me to go to Confession on my Feast Day and to go to Catechism in the Church. I remember when in Catechism class my name was very often called for a premium but I was too proud to go for it for fear it was not my name as they never spelled it correctly. Oh, my Saviour it makes me tremble when I think of what my parents went through during the persecution in Spain. My father must have suffered much for the sake of his family during the time he was hidden in the cellar. He loved our Blessed Mother very much and it was on the feast of her Immaculate Conception, at the age of sixty-two, 2 �that he died. My brother wrote me that my father’s last words were, that he died happy to leave one of his children consecrated to the service of God. That makes me think that he is in heaven praying for me. He passed through so much; how great is my sympathy for my parents! They were obliged to leave our native village and go to a strange country. As young as I was (five years old) I remember when we arrived in Barcelona we had no shelter for my poor sick mother. I do not recall if we had anything to eat during our journey. At last my father found a lady whom he knew and who had lived in our village. She gave us hospitality until my father found a location. Some time after that, wars broke out in Spain, especially in the city of Barcelona. Once a bomb fell on our house while we were at dinner and we had to run to the stable to save ourselves. Sometimes we were obliged to leave the city and got to some hole in a brick yard. We could see the bombs flying to destroy the city. Oh, my Divine Saviour, what calamities I have witnessed in my unfortunate country, constantly in trouble. Often we had to climb to the mountains for safety. After my mother died my father’s health began to fail. As I was too young to take care of him, he married an excellent lady, who was very good to him. I was put with a lady who kept a private school so I could learn something useful. My father was not able to pay but the lady kept me and I took care of her little boy. She was very good to me. I was with her five years. From her servant girl, who was very good and pious, I learned much about Nuns. I liked to listen to her; it recalled the days when I went to school to them and watched them iron the linens. I thought I would like to be a Nun after hearing so much of them from the servant girl. I used to dress like one in my play. I began to have a great esteem for Religious and it was my delight to hear them sing Mass. I took many a long walk just to pass the convent in the hope of seeing them. My father also liked to hear them sing the Mass; he was a musician and taught me vocal music when I was at home. The servant girl made a deep impression on me. She was instrumental in discovering my vocation, for after that I had no other desire than to be a religious and give myself entirely to God. I knew that in order to become a Nun it was necessary to have a large sum of money. My father could not possibly give it to me; but I trusted in Divine Providence. I began to pray that I might know how to communicate my desire to my father. My opportunity came on the twenty-eighth of August, Feast of St. Augustine. It was Sunday and my father took me for a walk along the seashore. We were conversing about the beauty of the sea. I had a great horror of the sea, and my father knew it but he said, “I want to take you to a beautiful place across the water.” I replied, “Oh, no, no, papa, please.” Then changing the subject, I asked, “ Papa would you like to have one of your daughters a religious?” He looked at me then said, “Yes I would on condition that she would be faithful in corresponding to her obligations.” He was acquainted with the duties of Religious, most of his friends being Priests. His answer made a deep impression on me but I replied that I thought I would be faithful if I were to become a Religious since God would help me. He said no more but we continued our walk. After a while I asked him to take me to a convent that I might speak to a Superioress. He took me and I told the Superioress my intention and the difficulty concerning the money. She 3 �made me sing; I sang the Immaculate Conception hymn, and she was much pleased with my voice and told me to learn to play music then I would be received. A friend of the Nuns was to take care of all my needs. But the Divine Master had other designs. I was trying to learn music but I feared it would take too long, so I thought I had better apply to the Sisters of Charity. The Sister Superioress knew me as I had visited her before with a friend who had joined the Community. I told her my desire and she said she would write to the Provincial House in Madrid. I waited anxiously for the answer. When I thought it had arrived I returned to the Sisters’ house but it happened that the Superioress was paying the nurses and sent word for me to come back the next week. O, my Saviour this was the Will of God. It was my first trial but I was not discouraged. I lived in hopes that Divine Providence would enlighten me. I continued to study. The priest who instructed me was a zealous religious and relative of ours. One day he told me that Bishop Amat had arrived from Rome and was in the city looking for students to take with him to California. In fun I asked, “ Is he looking for girls too.” He said, “Oh, I do not know about that.” What did he do but go and tell the Bishop what I had said. The Bishop told him to send me to him. The next day when I went for my lesson he told me Bishop Amat wished to see me. I said, “Oh, no, I do not go to see Bishops,” but he insisted, urging that he was related to us. I still refused but he continued to insist until I finally yielded. As soon as the Bishop saw me he asked if I would like to go to California with him. Without thinking I said, “ Yes if my father and my confessor will consent.” I did not think he was in earnest. My father was very sick, so I told him I could not ask his consent just then. The Bishop went through the country looking for students and I continued to wait for a reply from Madrid. When he returned he sent for me and asked me again if I would like to go with him. He had two other girls so that encouraged me. My father was better and I began thinking how I should ask his permission, as there was no time to lose. At last I took courage and asked, “ Papa will you permit me to go with Bishop Amat to California.” He said, “No what are you thinking about? Do you think going to California is like going to Gracia (a place to which we often walked) – you must go by sea.” I told him I was no longer afraid of the sea but he still refused. I went to ask my confessor and he said the same, arguing that I could do good in my own country. I pleaded that I was very anxious and that I felt a hand pushing me as if our Lord wanted me to go. Then he said he would give me three days to think it over, but the Bishop was to sail in two days and I told him so. Then he said, “I see that you are determined.” Then he gave me his blessing. I went to see my instructor and told him that my father would not consent. He went to see him and told him not to prevent me for it might cause him sorrow later. My father called me and said, “My child I cannot give you my consent, neither can I prevent you from going. You will have many trials, contradictions and sufferings, then you will blame me for letting you go.” I do not know where I got the strength to answer him, but I told him that whatever sufferings came to me I would take as coming from the Hand of God and never blame him for them. He could say no more but began to weep. He came with me to see Bishop Amat and the good Bishop encouraged him, telling him not to fret 4 �about me, I would be all right. He told me we were to leave after Mass at which he would give us Holy Communion. It was too much for my dear father to see to my passport so I asked my cousin to attend to it. As for myself, I felt very brave. It was the Hand of God that supported me. Very early the next morning, which was Sunday, my stepmother, my sister and my brother accompanied me to the Bishop’s residence. The good Bishop said Mass immediately, after which we had a cup of chocolate and started off. My folks wanted to enter the vessel but I would not let them. My father did not accompany me as he was too much grieved. We left the city of Barcelona on the twenty-third of April, in the year eighteen fifty-five. It was the second Sunday after Easter and the feast of the Translation of Relics of St. Vincent de Paul. It was the year that Spain celebrated the Dogmatic Proclamation of the Immaculate Conception. The celebration in our parish Church took place the day I embarked so I did not have the happiness of assisting but I was able to attend the service in some other churches and they were all very grand. I no longer had any fear of the sea but we had hardly entered the vessel when I began to be seasick. I did not know what was the matter with me as I had never been in a boat before. The Bishop soon perceived that I was sick and asked me if I wanted to go back. I told him my sacrifice was made already and I was going to continue the journey. Then he told me that if I died at sea I would be thrown overboard and be eaten by the fishes. I asked him if it was not the same to be eaten by fishes as by worms. He laughed and told me I was all right. I thought God would take care of me and if I should die I would be a martyr and go to heaven. Oh, how grateful I should be to God for having given me courage, for what would have become of me if I had not listened to His voice. When we arrived in Marseilles the Bishop went to arrange for the celebration of Mass. He took us to the English Consul who asked us if we were being forced to go; we told we were going voluntarily. In the evening we left for Lyons. From Lyons we went to Havre, where the good Bishop took us to the Sisters’ house. They were just taking the children to the Parish Church for May devotions, so we went with them. When we returned the Sisters gave us our supper and then we went to bed and had a good rest. The next morning the Bishop said Mass in the Chapel. We spent the day with the Sisters. They very kindly showed us the building. In one class room I saw about three hundred little children, one of them just three years old, and only one Sister teaching them. Little did I think I would be doing the same after some years. Later in the day we started for Paris. We spent the night on the train. I dreamed I saw a very pretty Sister of Charity. I had never seen the Sisters with the Cornette except in pictures; for in Spain at that time they did not wear the Cornette. I have heard they do now. We arrived in Paris at half past five. We were in a hack and as we drove through the street we saw a Sister of Charity. The Bishop told me she was going to see the Superiors. The Bishop took us to La Maison de la Providence and the pretty Sister I had 5 �seen in my dreams opened the door for us. I did not see her again although we stayed sometime in that house. Our Bishop went to St. Lazarre to see O.M.H. F. Etienne to ask him where it would be best for us to make our Seminary. O.M.H. F. told him in the U.S. as we could learn the English language. We remained in Paris to begin our postulatum until our Bishop was ready to sail. One day when the Bishop came to see us a Sister was in the parlor counting vestments. The Bishop remarked how busily she was working for the Missioners and told me to pay attention for I might have to do the same some day and so I did. During our stay in Paris I began to understand the French sermons and I was wishing that we might remain there. But the good Bishop had brought me from Spain to go to California so I had to keep my word and follow the designs of God. On the sixteenth day of May we started for the United States in company with the Bishop, Father Surrentin [Sorrentini], and the students. The previous day the Sisters had Forty Hours Devotion, and I asked to be allowed to stay up all night but they wouldn’t let me since I had to travel the next day. We had a frightful storm. The ship was nearly upset. I was very sick but not discouraged. I thought of nothing but the Holy Will of God. It was May and I am sure Our Blessed Mother protected us and enabled me to survive the long journey. Oh! how grateful I should be to God for what would have become of me if I had not listened to his voice. The good Bishop thought I was going to die. I passed ten days without eating or drinking anything. One day a student came to see me and told me they had had beans for dinner. I said, “Oh, you had beans for dinner; bring me some.” They brought me the beans and from that time I began to eat and to regain my strength. We arrived in New York on the Wednesday of Ember Week. The good Bishop took us to the Spanish Hotel and told us to eat our breakfast. The young Students made fun of me because I ate such a good breakfast. I told them not to bother me as I had been fasting long enough. After breakfast the Bishop sent the Students to the Seminary in Germantown. We girls remained in New York all day with the Bishop. In the evening I was sitting by the window and I saw a church all illuminated. I thought I would like to go to the church for a little while. I asked Father Surrentin [Sorrentini] and he went laughing to the Bishop to inquire of him what kind of postulants he had brought – they wanted to go to the Protestant Church. 6 �We next went to Philadelphia. Bishop Amat took us to Sister Gonzaga. She received us very kindly. Sister had known the Bishop as he had been many years in Philadelphia before he was consecrated. He left us with the Sisters and went to stay with his friend, Mr. Lopez, a Spanish gentleman who had married an American lady. The Lopez family wished us to take dinner with them, so on the feast of the Most Holy Trinity the Bishop asked Sister Gonzaga to send us to St. John’s Church for Mass and afterward they took us to their home. It was the feast of the Most Holy Trinity and we had a grand dinner with our Bishop, Father Surrentin [Sorrentini], the Pastor, and the Lopez family…. As soon as we were ready Bishop Amat came for us and we started for Baltimore. Sister Euphemia received us kindly and gave us dinner in the parlor with our good Bishop. In the evening Sister sent us to Mount Hope Retreat to spend the night. On the morning of the third of June we left for Emmitsburg. Very Rev. Francis Burlando, our beloved Father, and Mother Regina received our good Bishop and us very kindly. On the fifth of June we entered the Seminary. Sister Valentine, Directress, was extremely kind to us notwithstanding our inability to speak English. During my Seminary I was often sick due to the change of climate, but I was never discouraged; I felt happy to be in the Community. Before our Bishop left he gave us an instruction on perseverance. I am the only one of the three who persevered. I thank my dear Lord and I hope it will be so to the end. I kept the words of our dear Bishop and I remembered that he told us that when he was a novice he had a temptation to leave and he went to the Superior to tell him. When he knocked at the door the Superior did not hear him so the Bishop went away and the temptation left him. He never thought of leaving again. The Bishop was Spanish and a true son of St. Vincent. He had to leave Spain on account of the Revolution. We received the Holy Habit on October thirteenth, in honor of St. Therese. Sister Directress said I told her I had a sister named Therese. We remained only a short time in the Mother House as the Bishop was anxious to start for his diocese. We started early on the morning of the eighteenth of October. There were five of us – three Spanish sisters and two of the three American sisters whom the Superiors had generously given for the California Mission. They were Sister Scholastica and Sister Ann. Sister Corsina was already in San Francisco. The whole Community was at Mass. The Sisters sang “Soldiers of Christ Arise.” After Mass our lamented Father Burlando gave us his blessing and to each Sister, an umbrella. We had to go to New York in order to take the Steamer for California. When we arrived in New York Bishop Amat met us and took us to the hotel where we met thirteen 7 �nuns who were to travel with us as far a Panama. They were going to establish a school in Chile. Three Jesuit Fathers were also coming with us to California. We encountered a very bad storm at sea. The steamer was packed and all of the people were sea sick, even the sailors. I threw myself in a corner and lay down – Cornette and all. When I was able to rise a man offered me some brandy and I refused it. On our arrival in Panama the Nuns found they had missed the steamer for Chile. It distressed them very much to have to remain in Panama for the next steamer as they feared the Yellow Fever. We were fortunate enough to have to wait only a few hours. On the Pacific we had a dreadful time. They put us on deck with a crowd of people. It was so hot we could scarcely breathe. Dear Sister Scholastica went to the Bishop and asked for another place for she feared we would get sick. The good Bishop obtained from the captain a nice place. He also lent his own room for Mass. We had Mass and Holy Communion on Sunday. We made our Confessions sitting beside the Bishop in the midst of the crowd. The stewardess, who was a Catholic, was very kind to us and told us to ask for whatever we needed. Every afternoon she brought us a pie. We arrived in San Francisco at five o’clock in the morning on November fifteenth. Father Gallagher came to meet the Jesuit Fathers and kindly took us to the Sisters. They were just going to Mass so we went with them. Father Gallagher took the Bishop to see the Archbishop Alamany. Sister Francis McEnnis received us and when we came from Mass we had our breakfast. You can imagine what a sight we were after being one month at sea without changing our clothes. We did not wear the Cornette during our journey but only the bonnet and hoods. When the children saw us they did not think we were Sisters of Charity until we came down clean and dressed up. Bishop Amat brought the Archbishop to see us. Our Bishop brought the Pallium to Archbishop Alamany. Bishop Amat was consecrated in Rome on the eleventh of March, 1854. Our Holy Father, Pope Pius IX, had given him the body of St. Viviana for his diocese on condition that he would build the Cathedral in her honor. A number of Bishops had asked for this body but it was in the designs of Divine Providence that Bishop Amat should have it for he had not even asked for it. He brought it with him from Rome to Paris, where he had it fixed with wax. This Saint came all the way to California with us. Her body was first taken to Santa Barbara where the people received it with great pomp. It remained there for some time and when the church in Santa Barbara was burned, the body was removed to Los Angeles and placed in the old Church. The Cathedral was consecrated on the second Sunday after Easter, April thirtieth, by Archbishop Alamany, who came from San Francisco for that purpose. Bishop Amat being then too feeble. In the afternoon of the same day the Translation of the Saint’s body took place. There were enough people to form a procession from the old Church to the Cathedral. 8 �The building of the Cathedral cost Bishop Amat and Bishop Mora many anxious moments for it was not an easy undertaking to raise money in Los Angeles in those days. Mr. Mesmer offered himself and generously went from house to house begging for money. He succeeded and the Cathedral was finished and the debts paid. Now I must continue about our journey. The Bishop left us in San Francisco and went through the Diocese to find the best location for us. He saw that Monterey was not much of a place so he went to Los Angeles and decided that was the place for us and for him. He then wrote Sister Scholastica telling her he had found a place for us in Los Angeles. The steamer which could take us near Los Angeles sailed only once a month. It was ready to sail on the second of January. We were so anxious to begin our work that we left San Francisco without waiting to be told. The steamer brought us to San Pedro but as there were not public conveyances of any kind at the time we did not know how we were going to get to Los Angeles. Fortunately a lady who had traveled with us was met by a man with a wagon. She offered to take us with her and we were very glad to accept. The ride was splendid but as we neared the Los Angeles River the wagon stuck in the mud. There was nobody to pull us out. There were eight of us in the wagon, six Sisters, the lady, and the driver. We were there a long time, when some travelers came to our aid and we at last arrived in Los Angeles on the fifth of January, 1856. Our Bishop did not expect us until the next steamer, that is not for another month; so there was nobody to meet us. We did not know where to go. There were no streets, no people were around and only a few houses could be seen here and there…. The house was quite small. The people from whom we bought the place had brought it from London. They left a little furniture, but one afternoon, they came for it and we were left without anything. Sister Scholastica told Mr. Moran, our neighbor, that we had no beds. He said there was nothing he could do but go out to the carpenters and fill some sacks with shavings. Sister said that would do. We slept on those sacks for some time. I used to complain that they were awfully hard but Sister would motion with her finger to say nothing. Later a good lady gave us some wool to make mattresses. It took us some time to clean the wool. The carpenter made six beds and then we were grand. The children brought their beds and put them on the floor. We had to walk on them to go up to ours. In the morning they rolled them up and put them in the summer house as we needed the room for school. Some of the ladies used to come to the school with their children. Their servants would bring their lunch and they had their table in the yard. The room where the children slept was used as oratory, classroom, sewing room and parlor. Only God knows what we went through but nevertheless we were happy. In all kinds of weather we had to cross the [Zanja Madre] in a small boat to go to Mass. We were in great danger of falling in and had to hold each other’s hand to balance ourselves. 9 �The first Mass we heard in the old church was chanted by the Indian boys, who were taught by a Brother of the Sacred Heart. The old parish priest resigned and Father Blasé Bao [Blas Raho] took his place. The church was in ruins. Father Bao [Raho] repaired it and did a great deal of good for the people. He was made Vicar-General of the diocese. Father was very good to us and to our works. He thought we should build as the children were beginning to come and the house was too small. While the new house was being built we had to rent one in which to keep school. The corner stone of the new building was laid on the twenty-ninth of June, Feast of the Saints Peter and Paul. Father Bao [Raho] gave the children and us a little feast. He was very devoted and whenever he was given anything he would send it to us. One day Father came to the house and said he had a very sick man for us to take care of. Sister Ann said, “Father where can we put a sick man? We have hardly room for ourselves.” He said we must find a corner as the man had to be cared for or he would die. Sister Ann said there was a place near the gate where the gardener kept his tools and we could take them out and put the man in. Father brought he man and he got well. That was the beginning of the hospital in Los Angeles. Father Bao [Raho] wrote to St. Joseph’s for some Sisters for Santa Barbara and some for us. Father bought three pieces of white [linen] to make dresses for the children so that they would look nice on Easter. It kept us busy but they were all dressed up on Easter Sunday and the people admired them very much. He also gave us a picnic. He wanted to surprise us and said we were going to a funeral. We went to San Francisco in a stage expecting a real funeral. What did he bring but a stuffed sheep for us to eat! Father Burlando sent two Sisters for Santa Barbara. We were expecting two also but three came, one to take my place. I was sent to Santa Barbara to make a third there. The Sisters for Los Angeles got there on the second anniversary of our arrival so they found something done. We were just moving into the new house but I did not get a chance to sleep in it as they sent me immediately to Santa Barbara. I arrived there on the eighth of January 1858. The other sisters were Sister Mollain [Mullane], who was Sister Servant, and Sister Andrea. We began the Mission. The house had been lent to us for five years. We had the wealthiest children in the town in our school. Sister Andrea was teacher. The Sister Servant and I had to keep house but she was sick all the time. I had to do the cooking. I never liked kitchen work but Sister Servant said I should stay in the kitchen until I did like it. I tried my best and on days when Sister Servant was in bed I had to bring her a little of everything that I cooked so she could see if it was well prepared…. I had to wait on the children and take my meals with them. Sister Andrea was very generous. She attended to the supper and made the bread three times a week before going to class. At recess time she would put it in the oven. On Saturdays I took 10 �care of the children and Sister Andrea kept house and washed the clothes. I also kept the sewing class. With a bucket and rope we had to draw from the well all the water we used. The kitchen had to be moved outside on account of the smoke. I was nearly blinded by it. Some days the Sister Servant would have to go to her room and ask our Blessed Mother to make the fire burn and to keep the smoke down so that I could get dinner ready on time. One day I was not able to hold up my head I felt so ill. There was no one to get the dinner as the Sister Servant was sick in bed. The dinner hour came and everything was cooked. It was cooked by Divine Providence; I really did not do it and there was nobody else there. The same day after supper the Sister Servant told me to take the children for a walk. I had to tell her that I could not walk. Then she told me to finish the rest of the ironing. I felt so sick I thought I would drop dead. I often think now that I should have done as I was told, even if I had died taking the children out. I slept in the large girls dormitory. We went to bed at the usual time but I did not get up at four o’clock. Sister came and made me get up. I heard the girls say it was cruel for they knew I was sick. That Sister Servant was only one year in Santa Barbara. She was in the last stages of consumption. She worked as hard as any of us. She would clean the store room which was a very dusty place, and the rats and squirrels made plenty of dirt. The place was very old and damp. I wrote a letter one day and when I went to get it the next day it was all wet. It was even very hard to keep a fire burning for the sick Sister Servant. We had to cross the wet, muddy yard to get what we needed for cooking. Once there was a great flood and our whole place was filled with water. Fortunately, there was, at the time, a regiment of soldiers in town and the doctor asked the colonel to send some of them to open a place in the wall so the water could escape. They had no sooner done so than the water flowed out and we were saved. After that, the soldiers came to our well for the water as they couldn’t get it any place else for the other wells were dry. Then ours used to get dry after the wash was finished since the soldiers drew so much. Sister Andrea and I worked together and were happy in the midst of trials and inconveniences. I had a great trial and thought of leaving the Community. I was far away from home and would have had no place to go. I recommended myself to the prayers of the children without telling them my intention. Our Lord heard their prayers and the next morning, I had no thought of leaving and have not had any since. How grateful I ought to be to God for giving me courage to persevere in my dear vocation after many trials and difficulties. Our Sister Servant had gone to Los Angeles. She thought she would get well there but she died in a short time. It was more than a month before we learned of it as the mail came by the steamer which made only one voyage a month. 11 �We were only three young sisters, not one of us had made the Holy Vows yet; so dear Sister Frances McEnnis sent us an older Sister – Sister Polycarp O’Driscoll. She was made Sister Servant and we liked her very much. She made many improvements in the house and school. My health began to fail due to the dampness and over-work. Sister Polycarp took me out of the kitchen and put me in the school. I knew I was not capable of teaching but I fulfilled my duties in obedience and was very devoted to it so our dear Lord helped me. I had a good voice so I used to sing with the children in church until we got a teacher. When everything was going nicely our Lord sent us a cross. That year was so dry that the people lost everything; even the cattle died. They were not able to pay the tuition and we began to feel real poverty. The house had ben lent to us for only five years and we thought that at the end of that time we would be able to build, but we were not. It happened that on the very day that the loan expired, Mr. Aguire, the owner, wanted the house, so we had to leave it. Fortunately Dr. Den gave us a Ranch in Cinegites [Cieneguitas], so we went there and took the orphans with us. The house was very small but we made it larger by boarding it all around. We made an inner room for the children, a clothes room, a wash room and a little parlor. There was also a small kitchen and a very tiny attic out of which we made a dormitory. I slept up there and the roof was so low that I had to stoop in order to get in bed. Once in bed I could not turn over without bumping my head. There were holes in the wall and I was often visited by rats. In the morning I sometimes found them drowned in my wash basin. Oh! it was terrible. The foxes howled all night trying to get the chickens. I couldn’t sleep for fear that they would climb up, as we had made steps leading up to the attic and had turned one of the windows into a door. It had to be kept closed all night on account of the tramps so that left only one window for air. We had Mass only on Sundays and not then if it rained. The church was a small one that the Indians had attended. It was a long distance from our house and it was usually one o’clock before we got home and had our breakfast. If it happened to rain, we got home all wet and muddy. Sometimes our clothing was so drenched that we had the whole house wet. The house was on a hill and in order to get water we had to go down to the creek with buckets and carry it up. We did this every day after dinner and supper. There was no way of washing the clothes so Sister took some of the larger girls and went to a distant creek to wash them. They would bring them home in the evening all dry and ready to iron. We were given two hundred sheep. Sister gave me two little lambs to care for. To feed them I would dip my fingers in a basin of milk and they would suck the milk. They began to be troublesome as they grew so Sister gave them to a little boy who was always around our house. His mother had the lambs killed but the boy would not eat any 12 �dinner. He went to his aunt and then to his grandmother and found they also had some of the lamb. So he ate no dinner that day . I was not very well. My Sister Servant wanted to send me to San Francisco. I said, “Oh, no Sister do not send me away, let me die here.” Sister said, “I do not want you to die, I want you to get well but here we are so crowded. Let us see what Sister Scholastica will say.” Sister Scholastica told Sister to send me to her. I was delighted to go to Los Angeles, to my dear first mission. I arrived there in Holy Week so I had the good fortune of assisting at the ceremonies of that week. I gained a little strength and after one month I was sent to San Francisco with a band of five young sisters who had just received the Holy Habit. We had the Seminary in Los Angeles at that time. Sister Scholastica was Directress and Father Smith [Asmuth], Director. He did not live long. Father McGill succeeded him. Father Smith [Asmuth] was in San Francisco when I got there with the young Sisters. He sent them to different missions. Sister Frances McEnnis kept me with her. I was not well so she sent me to Mount St. Joseph’s. I got a little stronger there and was just beginning to feel at home when I was sent to St. John the Baptist's. They needed someone who could speak Spanish. I was there eighteen months. Then they sent me back to Santa Barbara. We only had one Mass a week there and I found that very hard. At one time we did not have Mass for several weeks, from the Feast of the Immaculate Conception to the last of January. No priest could get to us on account of the floods and heavy rain. The little adobe church that we attended was a long distance from our house. Sometimes we were caught in the rain. When we got home I would have to put the children to bed for fear they would catch cold. Sometimes it was two o’clock before we could get our breakfast. I used to say, “Oh, dear Lord surely my sins must be forgiven.” I was an angel for the children. They gave me a great deal of trouble because the Sister who had had charge of them let them have their own way. The Pastor and his assistant took turns to say Mass. When it was the Pastor’s turn, he would hear our confession and the children’s before Mass. The large girls received Holy Communion once a month and the little ones went to confession every three months. We would send the horse to the priest’s house on Saturday afternoon, by anyone that we could get to take it. When the priest got back home, he would take off the saddle and say, “Now George go home.” When we wanted to go to the town we had to go in the stage. It was very convenient as it passed near our place morning and evening and we did not have to pay any fare. 13 �Our big feast days we took the children to the Mission in our big wagon but not all could go. It was the greatest penance I could give them to keep some of them home for being bad. They would try very hard to be good for the next time. I remember once I punished one of them and kept her home on Ash Wednesday. While we were at church, she went to the kitchen and blackened her face with ashes from the stove. When we came home she said, “See I had ashes too.” After leading this kind of life for three years I told the Sister Servant I thought we should be in the city among the people and not out among the cattle. I suggested that we beg for money to build. We went to the city to beg and got enough money to build a small house. When it was finished, we left the ranch in Cinegites [Cieneguitas]; I never saw it again and I am not sorry. We kept school but found it hard to keep things going. Sometimes we had very little to eat. One day when I had the children out walking, we passed a garden, one of them said, “This is my uncle’s garden, let us go in and he will give us some vegetables.” We went in and he was glad to see us and gave us plenty of vegetables. After that he sent vegetables to us daily; God bless him. We then got along very nicely. We went to the parish church every day for Mass. On Sundays and holidays we had Vespers. Some days we had a second Mass. On those days we took turns to stay at home. We had charge of the choir. I used to sing with the children. My singing days are over now, and it is about time at the age of eighty-four. After a long time, I was sent back to Los Angeles. When I had been forty-seven years in California I was sent here to El Paso. It broke my heart to leave the children in California. I love children especially the orphans. I had left my country to come to California and I nearly died of grief when I was missioned. Besides my dear old Sister Servant had been in bed sick for three years. When I went in to say goodbye to her, I said, “Dear Sister Scholastica we came together to Los Angeles and I thought we would die together but now we are to part.” I felt very bad but I tried hard to keep back the tears. I paid for it later, for when I arrived in El Paso I became very ill. I turned as yellow as gold; the doctor told me I was in danger of being robbed. When I got well, I went on duty in the Chapel. I have had that duty for the past forty years, fourteen of which I have spent here in El Paso. I do not know how long I will remain here. My wish is to spend the rest of my days in Santa Barbara, because there is not one of the Sisters of the first band that went there, buried there, and I am the only one of them living. Yet I am satisfied to do the Holy Will of God and of my Superiors. Now I must say more about Los Angeles. The first house was built on Alamany [Alameda] Street. The corner stone was laid by Very Rev. Blasé Bao [Blas Raho] on the twenty-ninth of June, feast of SS. Peter and Paul. It was not a very large house and was situated in a public place, for which reasons we sold it after some years and bought a place on Boyle Heights. The digging of the foundation was begun on the tenth of February, 1888. Bishop Mora laid the corner stone. On September fourteenth, 1889, we 14 �moved in and our moving was great trouble. I had thought I would cry my eyes out when it came time to leave the old house, but I had no time for that. I was kept busy arranging things for the Chapel. I put them all into a trunk but could get no one to take it to the new house. Mrs. Workman was going to take Sister Scholastica to the new house in her buggy. I wanted to go with them but it was getting late and I had to see the trunk off. At last I got a wagon from a nearby store and was so happy at my success that I rode home in it. Then the driver took the trunk to the new house and I went in Mrs. Workman’s buggy. It was very late when I arrived. The altar had been brought from the old house and we were to have Mass the next morning, so I had to arrange for it. The Sisters said their night prayers and after they finished they put the candle out and I was left in the dark. I did not know where to go. I had no supper after working hard all day. Fortunately Sister Lucy Coleman took me by the arm and led me to a bed in the infirmary. There were no covers on it but I lay down without taking off my clothes and slept soundly all night. After Mass and breakfast, I straightened the Altar and as there was little water in the new house I had to go to the old house for some days to wash the Chapel linens. The first Sunday we spent in the new house, I intended after Mass and Benediction and my morning prayers to go to bed and rest. I was worn out after the long walks. But I was told to go to Mass in the city. I felt as if I would drop on the way but I went, through obedience, and nothing happened to me. We were many years in California before our Superior came to see us. In 1875 Mother Euphemia came to visit us. Some of the Sisters who had been exiled from Mexico were with us at the time and I thought I would be missioned. Mother Euphemia told me that she had not thought of it but that I had put the thought in her mind. I asked her if she remembered the nice dinner she had given us with Bishop Amat. Sister said she well remembered the trouble they had to get it. Bishop Amat told us that he was going to give us three Vincentians. They arrived in San Francisco on the ninth of March, 1864 and came to Los Angeles the eighth of May to open a college. We were delighted to see them. Their names were Father A. Smith [Asmuth], Father Rubi and Father Becker [Beakey]. They lived in an old house opposite the old Church. Later Mrs. Chaills [Childs] gave them a place and they built a house and began the college. We had to send them their meals for some time, that is, until they were settled. Father A. Smith [Asmuth] died and Father McGill came to take his place. A little later our Superior General, Father Etienne died and Father McGill was sent to Assembly and did not return. Then Father Richardson took charge of the college which was then on Sixth Street. Father Richardson and Father Landry built a very pretty place. Some time after Father Meyer was sent to replace Father Richardson. He was obliged to sell the old 15 �place and bought a new one on Grand Avenue. Father built a college and a church to which he gave the name of St. Vincent de Paul. At that time the place was considered to be very far away, now it is in the best part of the city. Before the reservoir was built the people use to carry the water in buckets from the [zanja]. They washed their clothes, bathed and emptied refuses in the same place. I remember when the first train passed near our house; the children were all excited and I had to open the window to let them see it. President Lincoln passed on the train and he asked the conductor who lived in our place. When he was told that the Sisters of Charity lived there he said, “Oh, they have a nice place.” That was the old place on Alamany [Alameda] Street. Oh, those happy days in California. The long walks on dusty roads that charity and duty required us to make were a great pleasure to me. I remember the first act of charity that we performed in Los Angeles. A poor Indian who had worked for our neighbor, Mr. Moran, died. Mr. Moran begged us to come to his funeral. The coffin was put on a wagon and we walked behind it. It was a very long walk over a dusty road but that was the only way to bury the dead in those days. The Indian boys, who were taught by a Brother of the Sacred Heart, used to sing the Mass. We had charge of the school and later of the choir also. Sister Corsina was a good singer, so she taught the children to sing the Mass. Sometime after Theresa Fox, a young girl from San Francisco came to be our music teacher. She was the first young girl to leave from California for St. Joseph’s to join the Community. I do not know if she is living now or not. In the afternoon, after school, Sister Scholastica would send us into our garden to pick strawberries. We grew enough of a variety of fruits to be able to sell some, and thus obtained money to buy flour and other necessary things. We also had a large vineyard. 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mombrado, Sister Angelita D.C. "Rememberance of My Youth", Memoir Subject The topic of the resource Mombrado, Sister Angelita, D.C., California, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, Hospital, Orphanage, City of Angels, Amat, Bishop Thaddeus, C.M., Spanish Revolution, Catholic Diocese of Monterey, Los Angeles Orphan Asylum, Institucion Caritativa, Memoir, St. Vincent's Medical Center, St. Vincent's Institution Description An account of the resource In the fall of 1855, six sisters left Emmitsburg (three of whom had been recruited in Spain by Bishop Amat) and journeyed to California, one destined for San Francisco and five for the Diocese of Monterey. The sisters journeyed by steamer to Panama and crossed the Isthmus eventually arriving in San Pedro on January 6, 1856. Five of the sisters traveled on to Los Angeles where they founded an orphanage, school and infirmary. In her memoir Remembrance of My Youth, Sister Angelita Mombrado looks back on her years in Los Angeles and Santa Barbara. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mombrado, Sister Angelita, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity, Province of the West Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1917 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gainey, Sister Margaret Ann (Editor) Marca, Nicole (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright 2020 Daughters of Charity Seton Provincialate Los Altos Hills, CA 94002 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Paper PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DCLosAltos_Remberence of My Youth by Sister Angelita Mombrado.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Spain Los Angeles Santa Barbara 1833-1917 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Education Healthcare Social Service