2 10 108 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8f0f987bb4b48eedb12dd632aaba6e6f.PNG a542caf60e53538cd79da73e2f091ebb https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8a0c87accb30f6ef10acd95d9fc41b40.pdf 722d40c293da9a54fde8996d6956592a PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 1 of 32 JK: Sister Mary Carlo, we're very happy to have you here today, and thank you for agreeing to join in the oral history project. This interview is with Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro, and the interviewer is Jane Kenamore. And we are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas. The date is June 27, 2017. Sister Mary Carlo, where were you born? [00:00:33] MCC: I was born in Casper, Wyoming. My mother and father had come over from Italy in the '20s. My mother is from the Adriatic side of Italy, up in the mountains, and my father is from southern Italy which was very, very poor. They came at different times of course. And the reason they came, my father came because it was very poor in Italy at that time, and he had had brothers who had gone, come to the United States, and they settled in Chicago. So, my father—and I think he lied about his age—came over and fought on our side in World War I. JK: He did. MCC: Yes, he did, and I think he lied about his age. But, anyway, he was short and he was a runner, and the only injury he had was a thumb that was out of joint. JK: Was he a runner as in a military runner? [00:01:42] MCC: I don't know how they did it in World War I, but they sent messages by runners apparently because he was one of the runners. And he didn't talk a whole lot about it, but he was kind of proud that he had fought on our side. And he always would dress up when they'd have parades in his VFW with uniform, you know, and a parade. So, he's very proud to have done that. My mother came over at a different time because those were the days when you had to be sponsored to come to the United States. And my mother is from a large family of 11. There were two boys, and the rest were all girls. So, the oldest girl was married in Italy, and they came over way early like in the '20s and went to Denver and bought a saloon and made lots of money in those days. And then she began to sponsor all of her sisters. And Mama was not the second one but the third one. So, the first one came over and she went to Denver, and then she decided to go up to Wyoming, Casper, Wyoming, and visit some friends. And when my mother came over, she was sponsored next, and she came over and went to Denver. And then she wanted to go up to Casper to see this sister, and she did and met my father, and I don't think she ever went back to Denver. So, that's how we all happened to be born in Casper, Wyoming. And Mother and Daddy had three children. I have two brothers, one older and one younger. I was born in 1926, and Father Dan was born in 1922, and Father Phil was born in 1930. So, I �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 2 of 32 have two brothers or I did; they died recently, but my two brothers… There were just three in the family. JK: All of you went into religious. [00:04:00] MCC: Father Phil, who is the youngest of the three of us, always knew he wanted to be a priest. We said he knew it right out of the womb. And so he told the priest at home, and so Father Phil is the only one who went to Maur Hill in Atchison, and he became a priesthood student. They had priesthood students there. But Father Dan and I, we graduated from our high school in Casper, and then we went on to college at the University of Wyoming in Laramie. And Father Dan, he wasn't a priest then, but he was a senior when I was a freshman, and, of course, freshmen are always crying. So, I would go over to Father Dan's place and cry my heart out 'cause I was homesick. But we made it through. Father Dan majored in mechanical engineering and I majored in business because those were the days when we didn't have a lot of money. We never went to Catholic school, none of us. JK: You didn't. [00:05:06] MCC: No. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: We didn't have the money to attend because it was tuition. So we went to grade school, high school and college all in public schools. There was only Father Phil later on that finally went to Maur Hill in Atchison. JK: Was church still the center of your life? [00:05:28] MCC: No. Not really because Mama and Daddy couldn't talk English, couldn't speak English, and so we didn't go to church and they didn't go to church. However, we had a wonderful… well, she's our godmother now, a block away and I think it was she who was… She and hers were from Ireland right off the old… right from the old sod. And I think she took Mama under her wing and eventually all of us were baptized. Mrs. Goggin made sure we were baptized. And little by little we started going to Our Lady of Perpetual Devotions and this and that and this and that, and eventually we all came in the… I was baptized, of course, in the church. Mrs. Goggin made sure that that happened, and we all were but we didn't go to church. JK: As infants? [00:06:25] MCC: As infants, yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 3 of 32 JK: Ok. MCC: So, that's how that happened, and it's interesting, isn't it, that we just didn't go to Catholic school though. The first time I stepped into a Catholic college was when I taught over her at the University of St. Mary. JK: Really? [00:06:43] MCC: Yes. The first time ever. I was going to Denver University to get my master's degree, because I majored in typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. That's a long time ago. Those things don't even exist now. JK: Right. MCC: And so I went to the University of Denver to get my master's degree, and I worked for the dean of graduate school. And the secretary there was a little Quaker girl, and she and I became very well-acquainted. And she knew that there were other Sisters attending the U. to get their master's and she introduced me to them. And so, these Sisters lived at St. Joseph Hospital at that time and would just come by bus or streetcar to school, and they would bring their lunch, and I would always eat with the littlest one, and her name was Sister Xavier. And so we'd eat together sitting on the steps somewhere. And then she'd always give me her Oreo cookies out of her lunch. So, I always tell people my vocation was generated by three Oreo cookies. JK: (Laughs) So, you were not a Sister at that time. [00:08:09] MCC: No, no, no. JK: You were just getting your master's degree. MCC: Yes, that's right. That's right. JK: What were your plans? [00:08:15] MCC: Then I went back and I said would teach. I taught one year in Gillette, Wyoming when it was not the big boom town that it is now. And then I got a better job at Cody, Wyoming, and I was making pretty good money. In fact, I was making 2600 dollars a year. (Laughs) JK: Wow. And when was that? [00:08:46] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 4 of 32 MCC: Oh, gosh, let's see. I graduated from the University in 1947, and then I got my master's, so that would be '48. JK: So, sometime after that. I was going to ask you if you knew anything about the JapaneseAmerican internment camp which was just outside of Cody. [00:09:07] MCC: Oh, that's right. They had them there. However, in Casper we had a Japanese family there. JK: Oh, you did? [00:09:13] MCC: Down in north Casper. And the oldest boy was Father Dan's age. And one of the girls was my age, so I went to school with them. JK: Oh, you did. MCC: High school, yes. JK: Oh, that's interesting. MCC: And I remember when we had our 50th reunion she came back. JK: She did. MCC: She was a pianist. She was wonderful. She went… I forgot where that is where you studied to be in piano. But, anyway, she was very good, excellent. But she came back on our 50th anniversary and it was just nice to see her. JK: Yes. Now, did she ever talk about her time in the internment camp? [00:09:55] MCC: No, and I didn't ask her. JK: Right. It's not something you would ask. MCC: We didn't talk about those things. JK: Right. So, your original career goals were to go… MCC: Was to teach. JK: …to teach. [00:10:10] MCC: That's right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 5 of 32 MCC: And I taught, I think, for 27 years and didn't like any of it. JK: Oh, no. MCC: This is what happened. I did teach for 27 years as a Sister… JK: As a Sister. [00:10:25] MCC: …in Butte, in Topeka, and I can't remember where else. Anyway, one time… my two brothers and I are very close. So, one time when they were together they thought that I wasn't happy and for some reason maybe… well, maybe it was because, you know, you try to get the students to type correctly and make corrections, and they never did. They didn't think that was important. They didn't think hyphenation was important. They didn't think that proofreading was important. I think I was getting a little discouraged. And I guess I showed that in my voice or they heard that in my voice. So, they called me up one day. It was after Easter. And they said we think that you should go to the mother general and ask her if you can have a sabbatical. I didn't know what a sabbatical was in those days. But I went and I said I just think I need to get away, maybe to learn more theology. That's what I asked for. So, she said, "Where would you like to go?" And I said, "I understand there's something out in San Francisco, a Jesuit place out there." Well, she said, "we'll see." And so it was all set. She said that I could finally go there and get some theology. And I was all packed and ready to go and the phone rang, and she said, the mother general said, "We think you should go to Denver, because that's closer to home, and your mother is still living." So, you do what you're told. So, I went to Denver, and I took theology at the seminary. I went out to the seminary and took theology classes. It was very difficult for me because I had never been in a Catholic school. So, I'd be on the phone talking to Father Dan most of the time. But, anyway, he encouraged me. And so then I went on retreat, and I met our Sister who was on retreat too, and I asked her at that time if I could be transferred from the teaching ministry to the hospital ministry. And she said yes. And so I did. And so I was sent... And I remember that so well. I went down to St. Joseph and I got there and in six weeks I was having major surgery. I'd never been sick in my life before, never been in a hospital before. And it was on the gynecology floor. And when I was recuperating I would walk around and visit all the other ladies that were recuperating. And I found out I was very much like my father who could get a lamppost to talk. JK: (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 6 of 32 MCC: So, after a year, after I recuperated from my surgery and everything I finally decided to… Here's what I said. I'm divorcing all of my machines. I don't want any more of that in my life— typing or shorthand or anything—and I want to go into pastoral ministry. JK: Oh, ok. Let's back up and talk a little more about your teaching career since you spent 27 years doing this. So, did you start out in grade school? [00:14:02] MCC: No. No. JK: No, you didn't. MCC: I taught in the high school. I taught in Gillette when it was just a little dot on the… Right now it's a booming town with all the minerals up there. From my typing room you could look down the street and there was nothing there. JK: Really. MCC: Yes, it was just nothing. JK: Yes. MCC: And so I started going out with a young man who was the principal of the grade school. JK: This was before you were a Sister. [00:14:34] MCC: It was before I was a Sister. And at the EBFW every Friday night they had dancing. And so we would go every Friday night. There's nothing else to do. JK: Right. MCC: So, we'd do that. And so, then I went home for, I can't remember, after that year, I think. And it happened that that young man came to Casper, and I invited him to dinner at our home. And we had dinner and when he left my older brother, Father Dan, said, "Keep looking." (Laughter) MCC: So, I did. JK: So, you did. MCC: That's when I went to Denver and started working on my master's degree. JK: Ok, and so it was there that you met… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 7 of 32 MCC: The Sisters. JK: … the Sister with the Oreo cookies. [00:15:32] MCC: That's right. That's right. JK: Ok, ok. And then when did you join? [00:15:37] MCC: Ok. So, when Sister Xavier, the one that shared her cookies with me, came back that summer, they found out they needed a business teacher at the college. It wasn't a university yet. It was a college. And so they called me up. And she said, "Would you like to come?" And I didn't want to because Kansas was halfway across the world for me in those days. And I said, "I just don't know." She said, "Why don't you come for an interview?" And so it was around Easter time. So, I remember walking up the lane with my little tin suitcase, and I went to visit with Sister; Sister Mary Paul was the vice president at the time. There was a president, but he was a… Dr. Murphy was the president, but she ran the school; it was a college. And all the Sisters taught there, and it was only Sisters. So, we were talking and she said, "Let's talk about money." And I said, "All right." She said, "How much were you making at your last place?" And I said, "I think I was getting 2400 a year." And remember this is way back. JK: Right, I understand, yes. [00:16:57] MCC: And so she said, "What about 2600?" And since I really didn't want to go there I kind of wrinkled up my nose, I guess. And I said, "Well…" And she said, "Three thousand?" I said, "I'll take it." JK: (Laughs) MCC: That was a hundred dollars a month. So, I went home and I told Mom and Dad and they were very pleased. And so that year I went. And then I taught. And there were about five of us lay teachers and they had a place for us to stay, and it was at the end of the building. We all had our own room and everything. So, we had a good time. We made our own order. We were the Order of Perpetual Recreation. JK: (Laughs) MCC: And the Sisters were so good to us. Every one of us had a feast day, and my name was Sister Mary Candelabra. And when we had a feast day Sister would send up a nice cake, 'cause the lay teachers all sat in one dining room, and we had a lot of fun together. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 8 of 32 So, then that was when I got used to the Sisters and working with them and everything, and after that, then, I didn't know whether I had a vocation or not. And there was a priest on campus, Father Dennis Mary, (phonetic) a Dominican, and I used to go every month and talk to him. And I'd say, "Do you think I have a vocation? How does one know if you have it?" I felt like I did but I didn't know how. And so I went every month and finally he said, "In May, Sister, what you have to do is decide once and for all. It's like going swimming. If you stick your big toe in you'll never get in. What you have to do is just hold your nose and jump in." So, after that talk, that's what I did. I jumped in. So, then I went home and told Mom and Daddy. It was May. I told Mom and Daddy that I wanted to go to the convent. JK: What was their reaction? [00:19:17] MCC: They were happy. JK: Oh, ok. Good. MCC: They were both happy. Daddy said to me, "So you want to be a "mornica," (phonetic) which is Italian for Sister. And I said, "Yes, Daddy." "Be a good one." So, I was to come here, I think, about August the 15th or something like that. And didn't my father up and die on July 24th, 1953, and that's why I have his name. Carlo was his name. JK: Oh, really? MCC: Yes. And so I chose that. No, we had to submit three names that we'd like, and I submitted Mama's name and then Daddy's name second. And then when you were getting your constitution, a little black book with a little small envelope in it, and you were to in silence go to the big chapel and open up the little envelope. And I opened it up and it was Sister Mary Carlo. JK: Oh, nice. MCC: And I thought that's a good way to remember my Daddy. So I always kept the name. When the Sisters went back to their baptismal name, and mine was Rose, I never did. JK: Mary Carlo is a beautiful name. [00:20:35] MCC: It is. It is. And so that's how I got my name, and that's how I entered in… JK: And then when you entered then you went back into teaching, right? [00:20:47] MCC: Yes, I did. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 9 of 32 JK: And, so, did you continue to teach at… MCC: I taught at the college. JK: …at St Mary? [00:20:52] MCC: I taught at the college. It was a college, not a university yet. And some of our Sisters sent me off to school, Notre Dame. I went to Notre Dame once and went someplace else another time. I can't remember. But I never had a desire to get a PhD. In those days you just didn't. JK: They were rare. MCC: That's right. And, so, I taught at the college and I really did like it a lot, and I liked being around the Sisters. No, this was when I was not in the Sisterhood yet. We were the Order of Perpetual Recreation, remember. (Laughter) MCC: But then when I went home and then I came back and that, and then my father died just in July and I entered in August. And then I was—what should I do? Because my brothers were in the seminary, and they couldn't be with Mama. Am I going to leave my mother all alone? It was very difficult. But this Father Dennis Mary (phonetic) that I had been in counseling with said, "Do whatever your mother says." And Mama said, "You have to go." JK: Really. MCC: She said, "You have your whole life ahead of you and I have to be alone," and she did for 40 years. JK: Wow. She was a very strong woman. MCC: She was. JK: And a very unselfish woman. [00:22:31] MCC: But our community has been very, very good to us. And when Mama got older I asked if I could go home and take care of her, and I did. I did for almost eight years which was wonderful to be able to do that and wonderful of our community to allow me to do that. JK: It really was. MCC: It was. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 10 of 32 JK: Did you also do some work in…? [00:23:01] MCC: That's when I started my caring ministry, because my brother, Father Dan, at that time was pastor at our church which was just two blocks from our home, Our Lady of Fatima. I looked for a job, but nobody would hire a nun. So, he said, "I'll tell you what we'll do if it's ok with your community. You work for our church here, Our Lady of Fatima. You work for our church, and I'll pay you a salary and you start this caring ministry and go out and visit." So, that's what I did. It was just wonderful. And I realized then, you know, that I just really enjoyed people and talking to them. So I started it. And what I did is I made a list of all the things that you could sign up for. You could go visit at the hospital or send cards to the hospital or make cards to send to the hospital. Or you could take communion to the hospital or to the people that are home bound. You could cook for people that come back from the hospital who couldn't cook. You could give somebody a ride to go to church who didn't have a ride. You could write letters. You could do… I had a whole 8 ½ by 11, no, by 14 page. JK: Of things that you could do. [00:24:29] MCC: Oh, all these things, and we called it the caring ministry. And people signed up for it. The first time, the first year, there were 20 people, and when I left later to come home there are120. JK: Really. MCC: And they did everything, and they loved it. They loved it. JK: What was your favorite part of the caring ministry? [00:24:52] MCC: First of all just directing it, making sure everybody… And then every year they signed up. I didn't want them to think that once that they started doing something they had to do it for the rest of their life. So, I'm a good typist, which is out-of-date now, but I typed up a list every year and they signed up for what they wanted every year so that I knew that what they signed up for they wanted to do. So, then, I did that. I forgot how many… Well, Mama died. That was it. Mama finally died. Not finally, but, you know. JK: I know. MCC: Mama died and then a Sister Sue, who was the mother general at the time, said I think you should go home. "Come home," she said, because the mother general always makes a visit to every house where a Sister is every year in her term. So, it was that time, and she came. I cooked a nice breakfast for her. I remember that. And then she said, "We think you need to come home." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 11 of 32 And my brothers agreed. We think you should go back there. And so that's when I finally, not finally, but I was called home, and I came and I'm not sorry. So, I came back and I was at the Mother House for 20 years and I loved every minute of it, yes. JK: And what did you do here? [00:26:16] MCC: Then when I came here I said, well, let's start a caring ministry among the Sisters. So, I did. And they signed up for it. But after a while it kind of dwindled out. The Sisters weren't as persevering as the people were. But that was ok. It was time to close that chapter. Also, at that time when I first came back I realized there's a military base here. Then one day we had no chaplain at our place, and we had to go out every morning for Mass if we wanted it. So, we went to this church, Immaculate Conception, and there were five of us Sisters and we all in the, you know, square hat, all in habit and everything. And when we came out I got a tap on the shoulder and this lady said, "I want to tell you what my little girl said." And so she said, "Mommy, there are five saints back there." JK: (Laughs) MCC: She said, "If they would like to write some questions and ask about Sisters, would you be willing to answer them?" JK: "Oh," I said, "Yes." "You know," I said, "I'd be even happy to come in your home sometime and talk to you about it." "Oh," she said, "that's fine. Let me talk to my husband." So, she talked to her husband and called me up, and she said, "Could you come for Sunday brunch? And we've invited two other families over. One family has two children, a boy and girl, and the other one has five boys and a girl." I said, "That’s ok, 'cause I have brothers and I can answer questions about priests too." And so we ran over there and that was the beginning of our friendship and that's the one who… They were just married out of West Point, and so we went on base and answered their questions and then we became good friends because they ended up having one boy and eight girls. And now… JK: My gosh. MCC: That's the young man. This young man is very, very generous. They were very good Catholics, but he was very generous. And if there were other officers on the base who wanted to have a date night he'd babysit their children. JK: Really? [00:29:03] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 12 of 32 MCC: Yes. Now, what kind of a person was that? JK: A good person. MCC: That's my Brigadier General now. JK: Really? And what is his name? [00:29:12] MCC: David Francis. JK: David Francis. MCC: They spent a lot of time here at the Mother House. I'd have them over for supper. We'd go out on a picnic. We'd put a penny on the railroad track. We just had a lot of fun. And Jody, the wife, was very… wanted her children to do for others, so they made pillows for all the Sisters in Ross Hall. JK: Oh, how nice. MCC: When we had the old Ross Hall. And we brought them out. And then the oldest boy, who was just in fifth grade at that time, had a magic show. So, we brought the magic show over. JK: That's cute. MCC: And the Sisters loved it. And, of course, they were thrilled to death. And then they got older and they got older. So, it was just last year. No, one time they came for dinner, just the two, the couple, and that's when I said to him, "David," I said, "I'm going to make a prediction. One of these days, I don't know when, you're going to be a four-star general." No, then I found out there were five-star generals so I changed the prediction. I said, "You're going to be a five-star general." And I had to find out what the five stars… who they were. But I did and I wrote them down. But, anyway, that's when one of their daughters decided to go to Benedictine school in Atchison. And so she would call me up and she'd come down and bring some friends and we'd have a lot of fun. So, one day… And, see, I followed this family. They went from Leavenworth to Hawaii, to Erie, Pennsylvania, down at Rutgers, then to Korea and then back. So, now he is a Brigadier General down there. JK: That's amazing. MCC: And every time he gets commissioned higher they send me an invitation and I write back and I say, "I would have come, but the Sisters wouldn't loan me their visas." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 13 of 32 JK: (Laughs). MCC: And so on Mother's Day, just this year, they called me from Korea. They were down in… JK: Oh, really. MCC: They called me from Korea and they said, "We're calling you to wish you a happy Mother's Day because you've always been a mother to our children. But we want you to know now that we are going to be grandparents." And I said, "Oh, good, then I'm going to be a grandmother." [31:56] JK: (Laughs) MCC: So, anyway, one time when David came with his daughter and we were sitting in this room having lunch or supper or whatever it was, and at the very end David said to me, "Sister, you've always prayed for us, and I want you to have this." And that's when he handed me the gold star. JK: How nice. [00:32:19] MCC: No, it's a silver star. JK: Right. MCC: And he pinned it on my… I think. So, I wrote a letter to all the Sisters and I said, "Now," I said, "you have to call me General Colibraro, but you don't have to salute." JK: (Laughs) MCC: Oh, we've had fun on that. But he's only now at a Brigadier General, and he's down at Rutgers now, commissioned. He's back from Seoul. He's only like 52 years old. JK: Is that right? [00:32:52] MCC: Yes. He's going to really go up high, I think. JK: Yes. MCC: But, anyway, that's that stuff. JK: So, do Brigadier Generals wear a star? One star? [00:33:01] MCC: One star. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 14 of 32 JK: Ok. MCC: And so do I. (Laughs) JK: Right, and so do you. Right. (Laughter) MCC: That family has brought me more joy… JK: Oh, I can imagine. MCC: …than any others. I've love many of the people that I still keep in touch with. But every time David would get a promotion they have to come here to Leavenworth. I guess they get information they need to know. And he'd always call me up and say, "I'll be there about 8:30 in the morning out in front. I won't be here long, but could you just come?" And I'd be out there waiting, and then he'd say, "I have to leave now." They're sending a plane for him. JK: (Laughs) MCC: So, we really had a nice relationship. JK: Oh, it sounds like it. Yes. [00:33:19] MCC: It was just very nice. JK: Let's see. When you joined Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth that was prior to Vatican II, wasn't it? [00:34:08] MCC: Uh-huh. JK: Yes. And so while you were in the community Vatican II happened, so you've experienced the old ways and the new ways. Can you tell about some of the changes that you liked? [00:34:21] MCC: Oh, whatever the community said was ok with me. When we changed to no veils, however, the community always said that those who want to could wear their veil. I chose what I wanted and that was to wear my veil. When we went to something else, you could wear slacks, you know, or you don't have to wear slacks. I chose not to. And so the community has been very gracious and open to what we want �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 15 of 32 as Sisters, and so we make the decision. So that's why I made this decision—I still wear my veil and my, what we call, nun boots. (Laughter) MCC: And I'm very happy. JK: And why do you like to wear the veil? [00:35:15] MCC: It's how I came, and I want them to learn to recognize me when I get out there. (Laughter) MCC: But several things have happened. And people would say… I would go out to the lunch. I had a very, very good Lutheran friend—her husband was a Lutheran minister—and we were very good friends, and we'd go out to different places. And one time, and this is just kind of an incidental, but one time we were at IHOP and when they brought the tickets I said, "Where is mine?" And she gave Virginia hers but I didn't get one. She said, "That man over there paid for yours." JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: And I said, "Oh, well, ok." So that was kind of surprising. But, anyway, afterwards I ran over to him and I said, "Thank you, sir. You didn't need to that." And he said, "I wanted to. You've given your whole life to God." So, I thought, well, I didn't do it for that. JK: For a free lunch. [00:36:33] MCC: No, no, right. (Laughter) MCC: And then when I would go home I had to go through Denver, and I'd have to walk through DIA. And, I don't know, three or four times, because I went home often in those days—I was younger—and a man would stop me, mostly men, not women necessarily, but men just stopped me, and he said, "Sister, thank you for wearing your habit." And thank you for doing this. "I appreciate your keeping the veil," or something. But I didn't do it for that reason. But people did notice. And, I don't know, I didn't like the idea of having to take care of my hair. (Laughter) JK: That's a point. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 16 of 32 MCC: But that was minor, you know. JK: Yes. You were involved with the AIDS epidemic. [00:37:26] MCC: Oh, yes. JK: When did you become involved with that? [00:37:30] MCC: When I was in Denver working at the hospital. One time I went to visit this young man, and I always sit on the bed. I used to sit on the bed when I visit. And I went in and I said… He was a Catholic. It was marked on the sheet Catholic, 'cause we're a Catholic hospital in Denver, and he was marked as a Catholic, so I went into visit him. He had a sarcoma, yes, the purple where…. JK: Kaposi sarcoma. [00:38:07] MCC: Kaposi, yes. And then I said, "What's wrong? Why are you here?" And then he says, "Well, they don't know. They're contacting," what is it, "the CDC in Atlanta, and they'll find out what I've got." Well, it came back. What is it called, sarcoma…? JK: K-A-P-O-S-I... MCC: That's right, sarcoma. JK: …apostrophe S. [00:38:34] MCC: And then I said, "What is that?" And he said, "I don't know, but I probably won't make it." And here he was a Catholic. And so I went down and notified Father to come anoint him 'cause, you know, if he's going to die. Well, then I found out he refused the anointing, and when I went into his room and he told me that I started to cry, 'cause I thought, ooh. But, anyway, he called me back into his room. He said, "Sister," he said, "I can take it. I'm ready. If that's what the Lord wants I can go." And I just didn't know what to say. I just never had experienced that before. I didn't have a lot of training before I went into pastoral work but I did later on. But I just sort of winged it. And so I said, "I'll be here for you. If you need me, call me." And he never did. He died without being anointed. And that bothered me a lot. However, since then I realized the Lord makes the decisions and He knows what goes on in people's hearts, and I didn't have to worry. Later on, up on that same floor, because they were all private rooms, a lady came to visit. This was on the other unit, but it was up on the tenth floor where there were all private rooms. And �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 17 of 32 she said, I'm his mother… no his grandmother."I'm his grandmother." And it's May. "And here's 120 dollars, and I want you to go home and visit your mother for Mother's Day. JK: Oh, my goodness. [00:40:20] MCC: That was his grandmother. So, you see, when you have your grandmother rooting for you you don't have to worry. So, I tried to let that go that I didn't fail him. But after that then I was more prepared for the AIDS patients, and you had to gown up because they didn't realize then that, though they didn't have all the answers—I'll put it that way—and you had to gown up. You had to put something on your head and your shoes. You had to wear the gown. You had to wear gloves. You'd just make sure you couldn't touch any of their fluids or anything like that. But I went in. You know that was my… and I met some wonderful, wonderful young men. They all died. JK: Yes. MCC: All of those in that day and age died. And now they have medicine that they can take, but in those days they all died. And one summer when one of our Sisters who's from Montana who worked with the AIDS patients came home told about what she did with them. She'd take them here, do this or do that. And then when she finished she asked if there are any questions, and I got up and said, "Sister, you're lucky. All of yours have lived. All the ones that I met early on in those days died." Yes, they did. And when I worked at the hospital if ever I had a patient who died I always wrote a letter to the family, and I wrote a letter to this one young man, and the family wrote back and they said he wanted to be a writer, and he was writing a book and here are two copies for you. JK: Oh, how nice. [00:42:00] MCC: And another one wrote back, the ones from Maine wrote back and said, "You were so good to our son. We want to pay your way to come see us in Maine." And they sent the money, and I went and I met them. They're from York, Maine which is a resort town up there. And a lot of them were gay up there. And they knew it. But the father was the chief of police and so at Christmastime they invited all of the people that had AIDS to their home and, yes… which was wonderful, wasn't it? JK: Yes. MCC: And when their son finally died, 'cause she was a nurse, and he nursed him, they bought a room in the hospital and called it his room and named it. And then his partner was in San Francisco, and he died a year later almost to the day. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 18 of 32 JK: Really. MCC: So, those were hard days for families and for the people that have it, but I met some wonderful, wonderful people. One was a university professor from the University of Wyoming. And one was also a husband of a good friend of mine that we used to visit real often, but he would every once in a while take a trip to Las Vegas and then… yes, see, so. JK: Yes. MCC: And she kind of whispered it to me. She said, "Really, he died of AIDS." JK: I'm sorry, what was that? [00:43:47] MCC: The wife said to me when he died, "He really died of AIDS." JK: Really. MCC: But, anyway, that was my connection with AIDS patients. I still write to the families to this day. I do, yes. JK: Oh, that's good. How many years were you involved with it actually? [00:44:10] MCC: I worked in the hospital 11 years, and it was the happiest years of my religious life. JK: Oh, that's good. MCC: 'Cause I met so many people. I became a grandmother. This young lady came to the hospital and she had an anencephalic baby. And so none of us knew what that was at the time, but I used to go visit this little child in the intensive care nursery every day, every day, every day, and I'd bring him a rose. So, when he died… They usually died the first day or within 24 hours, but this one went on and on. And I used to go every day and bring him a rose. And I would keep track of it, so when he finally died I typed everything up in a booklet and handed it to the mother and, of course, she was thrilled and invited me to the funeral in their back yard. And so I've been friends with Patty for I don't know how many years now, and we still keep in touch. And this Christmas when she wrote me she said, "Merry Christmas. A babe brought us together, and now we celebrate the Babe." I'm sorry but… JK: No, I know. It's affecting all of us. (Laughs) MCC: But you know what I do in Ross Hall now? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 19 of 32 JK: What? [00:45:40] MCC: I have a chair by the window. Both of my brothers have died, one last year and one just this year, and they were eight years apart, but they were close. We lived together sometimes. And I sit in my window, my chair by the window, with my two brothers' pictures there, and it brings me great peace. But I also thank God, for all the wonderful people that he's brought in my life. And I cried then too. (Laughter) MCC: But anyway, yes. JK: What else did you do at St. Joseph's Hospital? [00:46:25] MCC: One time, I don't know how it all came about, but I said, "Oh, my gosh, you know, I've been with a lot of deaths at the hospital." I kept track. There were about 265 all together. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: And that was the time when Elisabeth Kubler-Ross came out with her, you know, at first you're angry and then you're this and then you're this and finally… JK: Right. Right, right. Yes. MCC: And so I read her book and I realized that I had examples for every one of those steps. And so I started giving talks on… and then I could illustrate them. This person that came in... Like one time there was an AIDS patient on the fourth floor. It was in the wing, and he had brought a cake for his friend. But when he got there the friend had died. JK: Oh, how awful. [00:47:15] MCC: And I remember him taking that cake and throwing it in a garbage can and going to the elevator and poking… He was angry, you know. JK: Right. MCC: But examples like that that were true. Then I started giving talks around Denver in the hospital first to some of the doctors that I thought maybe would benefit by it or they asked me to talk. Let me put it that way. And little by little then somebody would ask me to go here or go here. One time they invited me up to Vail and I got to ride on the whatever… JK: Oh, did you? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 20 of 32 MCC: And then I gave a talk, you know. And I remember sitting out there on the edge of a cliff and looking out at all the mountains and everything in one… yes. And we were involved with a Jewish wedding at that time, but that's beside the point. But, yes, I've had a lot of wonderful experiences, and that's why sometimes when I think about them I do have to cry. They're beautiful. JK: You said you gave talks, and I know that you were involved in hospice which is not new but it has become more known in the past 20, 25 years. [00:48:45] MCC: In those days if you were in hospice you knew you were going to die, so you didn't make any bones about it. And I remember going to visit someone that was in the hospice and you had to gown all up of course. But I was used to doing that in the hospital so I did that and made some very nice friends and always wrote to their families, and so I have friends all over from some of that. But I did keep track of all of my deaths so that I could use the examples to help other people. And I remember I had never been around a death before even though my father died. He just had a massive heart attack and that was it. But I remember the first time in the hospital that I hadn't experienced a death. So, Sister Marilyn, who was a Benedictine from up here, was chaplain down there. So, one day she said to me, "This man is a Catholic man, and he's on his last breath. Would you like to come and see what I do?" And I said, "Oh, yes, I'll be happy to. So, we went in and I remember she prayed for him and she said some Hail Marys for him and some other things and just was quiet and everything. And then he did die. And then after the family left and everything, Sister said me, "Should we go into the dining room and just kind of process this and see?" So, we went in and Sister said, "How do you feel?" And I said, "I think I'm going to throw up." JK: Oh, gosh. (Laughs) [00:50:56] MCC: That's how I felt, 'cause I had never experienced a death. JK: Right. MCC: And it was good experience because then when I was home with Mama that helped a lot. JK: What do you say about people who support physician-assisted suicide? [00:50:53] MCC: See, I'm against that. But it's a person's own right to do that, and so I'm not against it, but God makes the decision. And I think that suffering is very redemptive. That's what Jesus did on the cross. He suffered. So, whatever suffering you go through is redemptive if you offer it up. Now, some Catholics and non-Catholics don't maybe appreciate that or know about it. And that's ok, because in my mind God loves every person he ever created, and he's not going to send to �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 21 of 32 hell somebody who just because at the last moment made a different decision. So, it's ok. If you want to do that ok. Now, I don't know if I'm right or wrong on that, but that's how I feel about it. JK: That's kind of the way I feel too. [00:52:01] MCC: Because God knows, and this is what I say about suicides. God knows what went on in that heart and what suffering, inner suffering they've gone through that maybe they weren't able to verbalize. And so who am I to judge? JK: Right. MCC: And so when there's a suicide, God knows. And He knows and He loves us, and so I don't know what God does but I think He'd love them always. Does that make sense? JK: It makes perfect sense. [00:52:44] MCC: Ok. JK: It does. MCC: That's the gospel according to Carlo. (Laughter) JK: It makes a lot of sense. Did you initiate the prayer ministry at Ross Hall? [00:52:59] MCC: I don't have a prayer ministry at Ross. I did that when I was at the Mother House. JK: Oh, when you were at the Mother House. MCC: Yes. I noticed that on those slips. I didn't do it at Ross Hall, because when I came here I want everybody praying for me. JK: (Laughs) MCC: In fact, I'll have to tell you this. You know my older brother, Father Dan, made a lot of money and he's given scholarships to the university, endowed and scholarships and to different colleges and everything. And then when my brother was in the nursing home before he died in March everything was paid for by Father Dan's money. And then I said to the CPA, 'cause I taught Father Dan everything he knew about that. So, I called the CPA and said, "You know, I'm in a nursing home." (Laughter) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 22 of 32 MCC: So, we found out just yesterday that we are getting a good amount of money… JK: Oh, good. MCC: …for my care here in the nursing home, because it's a new one. It's just been opened. It's beautiful. It's just lovely, and so I was just very… Yesterday I got the letter. JK: Oh, good. MCC: And I sent it Sister, and she's very excited because there's a lot of money coming. JK: Good. MCC: You know, we went back and how many years have I been…? And I don't mean to tout anything, but, you know, it paid for Father Phil, and I kept saying, "Why isn't it paying for me?" JK: Yes, right. MCC: I couldn't talk to the CPA so I said to her, "You talk to him." I gave her the number and she talked to him. And he said, "Ok. Make out a list of what you think it would cost if…" Ok. We're getting it. JK: Very good. [00:54:55] MCC: So, I figure, gosh, I taught him how to do bookkeeping, this brother of mine that didn't know what he was doing. He did fine with the bookkeeping, and every time I'd go home if his trial balance didn't mount (phonetic) I'd help him find it. But then when they started splitting stocks and doing all that he lost me, because I didn't study that. And so my younger brother who was living there at the time with him, he said, if you pardon the expression, he said, "We had to take the damn red book to Leo." (Laughter) MCC: But Leo straightened it all out. I figure he had it and he had always said that in his… Father Dan always said in his will I want to make sure that Father Phil and Sister are well taken care of, and so we are. JK: Oh, that's good. MCC: Very well taken care of. JK: So, you've lived in a community now for how many years? [00:56:00] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 23 of 32 MCC: Let's see. I think it's 65 next… I entered in '53 and that's when they started counting, so you figure it out. (Laughs) I need my machine. I think it's either 64… yes, I think it's 64 years. JK: Yes, that would be when it… MCC: But I came late. I was 27 when I entered. JK: Right. MCC: Because I had taught all those years. JK: Because you had taught before, right. And what has living in the community meant to you? [00:56:33] MCC: My community, our community, has been so good to us. I've never been refused a request—never. They provide for it even without my asking for it. JK: Oh, how nice. MCC: So, I've been very happy here. And, as I said, now in Ross Hall all I do is count my blessings. And this beautiful room that I have, it's on the inner court but I don't face the wall or the outside, and I like it because it's very conducive to prayer and contemplation, and it's beautiful. And they had these big, overstuffed chairs and my feet wouldn't touch the rug (phonetic) so they brought me a good straight-back chair. And then I have a reading machine. Thank God for that. JK: Oh, good. MCC: One of the Sisters, no, a woman at the university, her mother had macular degeneration, and so it's on loan from her. I've had it for a year-and-a-half. So, that's how I say my prayers. I put my book under… My brothers bought me a Breviary, a real Breviary that the priests say. So, I say my prayers on the machine in the morning and at night, and if I get a letter I put that under there. And when I got the letter from the CPA it was… (Laughs) JK: Oh, that's good. Right. MCC: Call Sister immediately. (Laughs) So thank God for that. So, see the blessings there are. Oh, yes. So, I do enjoy Ross Hall. JK: Does Kansas City have a radio station where they read Time magazine, The New York Times and all that kind of stuff? [00:58:23] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 24 of 32 MCC: I'm sure they might, but I have those, I don't know, books for the blind and things like that. You know I don't use those anymore. They sent me mystery books. JK: Oh, did they? MCC: Yes, at the beginning. We went through this great process of what do you like and all that, so I got mystery books. There's a knock on your door every whip-stitch and I'm forgetting who killed who. So, I thought no more mysteries. And so they sent me another one, which was very good—I enjoyed that—about dogs. There's a different story every day about dogs and that you could put it on silent for just a minute and then you would start it again. But you could go on with the dogs that way. And so more are coming in, and if I feel like I can use them I do it. But, you know, I enjoy more just sitting in my window looking out. JK: My mother had macular degeneration, and in St. Louis there is an order called Our Lady of the Snows, I think. [00:59:33] MCC: Probably, yes, uh-huh. JK: And so they have this service that you can sign up for and it's also very easy. It's just an onoff button. MCC: Oh, that's wonderful. JK: Yes, it is wonderful. And so they read the newspaper. I guess they read books. But mostly it's newspapers and magazines. MCC: Well, now, just this last weekend two friends came. He had written a book, and I did my best to advertise it for him in the churches and in the libraries, and I sent out letters and all kinds of things. And we didn't have an overwhelming response. But he's very pleased. And so today I got the… our communications person was there. She took a picture, because he donated a gorgeous tile plaque of Our Lady of Guadalupe. JK: Oh my goodness. MCC: And right after lunch today I went with Sister Lucy, our superior, and we decided where to put it. And it's so heavy that they're going to put a… I forgot. There's a word that they have to put it in. And they'll find the stud and everything, but it's going to be hung tomorrow. JK: Oh, great. MCC: It's beautiful. It's a tile. Yes, it's beautiful. But, anyway, that was very, very nice. And I'm glad that weekend is over 'cause I did a lot of work. And I had wanted more people to attend, but Pierre, who wrote the book said, "Sister, I would have been satisfied with 15." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 25 of 32 JK: Oh, good. That's good. So, the community has changed so much over the years and one way it's changed is that people have left and not as many people are joining. What do you think is the future of the SCL? [01:01:28] MCC: Now it's my chance to tell you about Sister Rejane. When I was in the Mother House they called over from the vocation office and they said there are three young women here who want to enter as candidates. Would you be willing to take one of them and not mentor her, but just be a companion? Take her down to the dining room, and, you know, when you walk in there are 300 Sisters sitting there. And so, I said, "Oh, sure. I'd be glad to." Sister Rejane came over, and she came over every Thursday, every Thursday, every Thursday, every Thursday without fail. At the end of the year we were very good friends. And then she went to Denver and she emailed me, and those were the days when at least I could do a little email. And so then she came back to teach at the school. It's diagonally across the street. And she'd come over to see me every Thursday. But now, and this is what's interesting, and this answers your question, I think. Rejane is in Wisconsin, Racine, Wisconsin, working on a farm which has been what she's always wanted to do. And she sent me… well, there's a picture of her in one of our magazines with her arms around an alpaca and smiling. She's just so happy. And she calls me every Sunday night, so I have the picture on my desk. It's in here some place. And so then when she came to see me she brought me a little alpaca made with the actual fur of the alpaca. JK: Oh, how cute. [01:03:10] MCC: I think I have it in there somewhere. JK: Here it is. MCC: Yes, it is. And they have one white alpaca, and he's very unusual. His name is Leo, but this one's name, well, the real alpaca in the picture is Gaylord. So, I named this Pietro. That's Peter in Italian, Peter, and it's standing up there, and look how happy she is. Now that's the answer. Ted Dunn in that LWCR magazine that they put out periodically, the last article in the latest issue he interviewed a number of different orders where the Sisters were all young all over the country and found out what do the Sisters want. Are they happy with the…? He found out a lot of the younger Sisters were angry because when they entered, you know, the old people were angry too. And they didn't like that. And what did they want then he asked. We want to do what we feel the Lord is calling us to do as His mission, and that's exactly what Rejane is doing up in Racine, Wisconsin. JK: That's wonderful. [01:04:26] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 26 of 32 MCC: And her parents have been up there and her family. She has a brother and his family has been up there, but look how happy she is. JK: Yes. MCC: How can you not… And then we have another Sister Melissa. She came to see me. She entered quite a while ago, so she's a little older than Rejane, but she came and I hadn't seen her for a long, long time. You know what she's doing? She's in New York working with trafficked women. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: Now, that's where our community is going now. And the help that they're getting is through the confederation of Sisters of Charity because they meet together. And when all these young Sisters get together... Someone asked Rejane how could you find out about that? She said, "One of the Sisters in the federation told me that…" See. JK: Interesting, right. [01:05:21] MCC: And so that's how our community is going to go on by the young Sisters doing these various unusual things. Like Sister Vicki is building that down in Leavenworth where the poor people can come and get food. JK: Oh, food pantry. MCC: Yes, that's right. See, they're doing things that people... that they feel in the heart, their heart, that the Lord is asking them to do. JK: Right. [01:05:47] MCC: Not sit around and pray like we used to do. And that's where it's going. And so, if it dies out, if our community dies out, we'll have the confederation. Young Sisters get together and they can help one another and spread the word. JK: Right. MCC: Isn't that beautiful? JK: So, they have their community… MCC: Yes, that's right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 27 of 32 JK: …even though they might be geographically separated. [01:06:11] MCC: That's right. That's exactly right. And now Rejane is coming home on the 9th of July, 'cause that's when our big meeting starts here when they decide and all that kind of thing. And she'll come in and see me and I'll hug her and cry and cry when she leaves, but that's ok. JK: So, you wanted to tell about some of the things that you brought. [01:06:33] MCC: All right. You know that book right there is the book that I tried to help my friend sell. Over the weekend he was here. And this is true. I didn't know this part of his life, because we knew him in Casper. He was very helpful to Mama in helping her... When I went home to take care of her my brother bought us a microwave, but there's no room in our small kitchen which is our home right here. You see that. There's a picture of our home. See how tiny it is and the front and the back. JK: That's so cute. MCC: And it's just really tiny. But he came in and built a shelf for us and fixed the TV. Mama had the TV over here so she didn't use this half of the room. He came in, put up wire and put the TV over here, opened up… So, he's just done a wonderful… our family in every way. He's very artistic. But this is the story of his life. And he had been at this boy's ranch in New Mexico when the priest was abusing the boys. JK: Oh, that's awful. MCC: But he didn't know it at the time. JK: It's called Secrets of the Blue Door. [01:07:46] MCC: And the blue door is where the boys… Nobody, nobody but this priest would go through that door and the boys that he allowed to. And little by little Pierre kept track, and that was his saving grace. He wrote it down, everything. And then one of the boys ran away and froze that night, and Pierre had to go out and find him and he dug a grave and buried the boy. So, Pierre started keeping track of everything that went on. And he finally realized that the boys were being abused. So, even on the QT he would… He was on the staff there. He'd take the boys fishing and they'd go for a walk. And he'd ask little questions and pretty soon things began to appear that were not good. And so this is the story that we never knew of Pierre. And he wrote it and I tried to help him sell his book. JK: And this is Pierre Nichols. [01:08:58] MCC: Nichols. And he was here just over the weekend. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 28 of 32 JK: Oh, he was? MCC: Yes. Yes. And I had sent pictures and posters out and sent letters to 52 people. You can get it on Amazon.com. But it's wonderful. But it ended up good because three of the boys when they grew to be men found Pierre's name on the internet, and they called him up. And they said, "Can we come see you?" He was thrilled to have them come. They said would you help us testify? We're going to sue the State of New Mexico, and he said yes. So, he did. He had a seven-hour deposition in front of all these lawyers and his saving grace was he had documented every single thing that happened. And my brother, Father Phil, is in the book sort of. When this one boy died in the snow when Pierre left the rancho, the boys house way down in New Mexico, and he went up to Wyoming and he met my brother. And he didn't know my brother but my brother said, "Have you eaten anything?" And he said, "No." So, he said, "Come on. Let's go to the Village Inn." And he told him about the boy that died. Father Phil went out and he bought a piece of granite, a nice stone, and had the boy's name and everything put in it. And then Pierre went back to New Mexico and buried the boy and built a fence around it. And so, the boys did sue, and they did win because they were men at that time. They were like 30 and 40 years old. And Pierre didn't get anything, but he said I didn't want anything. So, that's the Secret of the Blue Door and that's Pierre, and that's the young… well, he's not young anymore. He's in his seventies. And I didn't know that part of his life. And it's hard, isn't it? And a lot of people didn't want to read it because who wants to talk about that? JK: I know. MCC: But this happens and it's still happening in many instances. So, that's what I did over the weekend. JK: Ok, and then you told the story of the… MCC: That's my general. JK: That's your Brigadier General star. [01:11:37] MCC: Oh, I didn't tell you about this. When I worked at the hospital, I was on the 10th floor which is all private rooms, but I was also on the 9th floor which is Urology. And there was a young man who was a doctor and he was just an ace in everything he did, just right on target. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 29 of 32 My mother had her kidney removed. I went to him one day and I said, "Doctor, my Mama is going to have a kidney… would you come and talk to me about it? What do I expect…?" He said, "I'll meet you in the doctor's office." So, we came to the doctor's office and for almost an hour he wrote down all the things. If it were cancer, if it was this, you'd use (phonetic) this. So, we became kind of friends. And then I left the hospital to come here, and so I would write to him, and I'd say, "Oh, gosh, our campus is beautiful," and it is, isn't it? Beautiful I said. And then I'd talk about something else. So, one day he said, "How about I come and do a picture book on your Mother House?" JK: Oh, how nice. [01:12:43] MCC: So, he came and he did a picture book on all… yes. If you want to look at it... He wouldn't publish it until every Sister okayed her picture, and one of the complaints was Sister Mary Carlo's picture is in it too often. JK: (Laughs) MCC: But I was the one that showed him around, you know. Some of these Sisters have died, but this is the book. And it's on the internet now, so, if you know how to get it. It's Dr. William Pelander. Turn to the very end. FD: What year did it come out? [01:13:19] MCC: It says back here. I think it's '56. See, that was the doctor at that time. He is a little bit older now. Does it say here when it came out? Oh, here it does in the front. Oh, here. See, that's his name. William Pelander, M.D. FD: 2010, so pretty recently. MCC: It is, yes, it is. And so I was visiting at that time so I took him to the V.A. and I took him to the river. I took him to wherever I went and there's a picture of me when I took… you know, I visit the little black lady down here at the apartments right on this street, and he came with me. There's a picture of me giving her communion, although you can just see her and my hand in community. Like I said, he wouldn't publish any picture until the Sisters okayed it. And the first complaint was we all look so old. (Laughter) MCC: I said, "We are old." JK: (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 30 of 32 MCC: Well, anyway, God love him. He went back to Denver. He's from Denver. And he, what do you call it, brush-stroked all those pictures. JK: Did he really? (Laughs) [01:14:34] MCC: He did. He did. You can't see our wrinkles real good. He did. It was months. JK: That's hilarious. MCC: And then finally it came out and it got the ok. Isn't that something? We were so old. JK: That's very funny. MCC: But anyway, that was important. That was an important thing in my… when I met Dr. Pelander. Then after Mama had her surgery and the kidney came out, my brother looked after her because he was at the church there. And then so I'd say, "How's Mama doing?" And then I'd catch doctor and I'd say… we'd be joking and laughing about something and I'd say, "Can I ask you something about Mama?" Doctor mode. JK: Oh, funny. MCC: He went right into doctor mode. And so that was a nice relationship that we had. And this is not me. This is Sister Katherine (phonetic) (inaudible) and she was… That was her right in front of the Blessed Sacraments. That's where she prayed in the big chapel. But that's the Mother House book. JK: Thank you. [01:15:41] MCC: And every time people would come, my guests or anything, I'd put it out, and so when you go to the library check it out. It's Sister Mary Carlo, Sister Mary Carlo, Sister Mary Carlo. (Laughter) MCC: Anyway, I thought, well, I'll bring that because that's part of my show and tell. And the little vases that Pierre made. Pierre is a grand master three times in New Mexico in making pottery, beautiful gourds this big. He studied that Indian Mimbres and he learned. This little thing, guess how much. This is a gourd. How much do you think this would sell for? I asked him when he was here. JK: I don't know. [01:16:30] MCC: Sixty-five dollars. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 31 of 32 JK: Really? MCC: Yes, really. 'Cause you'd have to go in, you'd have to dry it. You have to (inaudible). And he has to wear a mask. JK: Oh, my gosh. MCC: But he builds great big ones. And so he won grand master, not master. That's one step. But he's grand master three times. So, he stopped that. Now he's writing books. (Laughs) JK: Well, thank you so much. We appreciate this so much. MCC: I'm glad I brought out my show and tell because… JK: I'm so glad you did. MCC: Thank you. Thank you for listening, both of you. FD: It was a great story, great life. JK: It was really wonderful. MCC: Ok. That's fine. JK: Thank you so much. MCC: I enjoyed doing it too. And I hope it wasn't too long. JK: No. FD: No, we have plenty of time. MCC: Ok. All right. JK: This is perfect. [01:17:21] MCC: All right, thank you. FD: Thank you very much. JK: Thank you. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 32 of 32 MCC: All right. Thank you very much. ### � https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/226d2e95839dc23e9786a0862a4aafae.mp3 501fa6f8de712ebcf352d3ede49ad873 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:10 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo, Oral History, 6/27/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Family; Italy; Teaching; AIDS Ministry; Pastoral Ministry Description An account of the resource Sister Mary Carlo speaks quite a bit about her family history as both parents were immigrants from Italy. She also talks about how she encountered the SCLs and joined the Community. She discusses her 27 years teaching but how it was the creation of the Caring Ministry and her work with AIDS patients in the 1980's which were really meaningful. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c76c6f420b04bb3275f6018c10d0ef18.jpg c251ab3bf9102cad76f2e82891c236e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Administrative Centre, Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish, Subject The topic of the resource Administration building Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish Description An account of the resource Administrative Centre, Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Congregation of the Sisters of St. Martha, Antigonish Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022 Relation A related resource N/A Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .jpeg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Still Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context N/A Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Antigonish (Nova Scotia, Canada) https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/ab76f29bc899b3a91b5da0d652b26ec1.jpg caae724956d9a8dd69098604ea1bbc02 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/49f799a682a8b90ecd138eed4331e3a6.jpg c65bfe77d4e14ded10be44b6f1a99522 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/74945eb0952e23d9aa11b003a68b79eb.pdf 7cb13f180e22e3d321c3591f139353cb PDF Text Text Around 1937, Sister Raphael Creagh wrote her memories of Virginia City. I received the Holy Habit for St. Theresa’s day, October 15, 1889. When I went to see Mother Marianna, I was told I would leave the following week with her and Sister Mathilde Comstock. They were going to New Orleans and I was to go with them to within a few hours of St. Louis where they would change cars, but Sister Magdalene Malone had received word to meet me in St. Louis. I was to remain there in the old insane asylum in the downtown district from Thursday until Sunday evening when sister would see me off for St. Mary’s School, Virginia City, Nevada. The following Sunday Sister Magdalene took me to the station where two very fine gentlemen, railroad officials, met her. After much formality and diplomacy, they bid us adieu -- but here is where my troubles began. I was given an interminable number of railroad tickets with all kinds of fine print on the back, which I thought was not necessary for me to read since I had received verbal orders from the two railroad officials. I was told the first change would take place at Denver, Colorado and not to worry until I got there, but it was at Kansas City the next morning that the trials began. On our way out from Kansas City the conductor came around for my ticket accompanied by a brakeman. The conductor must have been an A. P. A. [American Protestant Association] who were in great power in those days. He seemed to ignore me for what I was and said, “Why didn’t you have your ticket exchanged in Kansas City?” I told him that I was not instructed to that effect. “Well, I’ll have to put you off if we do not hear by the time we reach Topeka as to whether or not you can continue,” he said coldly. I said, “Couldn’t I pay until we reach Denver since the officials in St. Louis said the first change would be made there?” Then he said angrily, “We’ll see!” We reached Topeka in time and waited there twenty minutes. When the train started again I felt relieved for I thought then that they had heard I could continue, but much to my surprise when we were three miles out of Topeka, he came to say that I must get off and wait for the next train which would arrive there at midnight. It was then twelve noon! I was forthwith put off the train and found myself in the middle of a Kansas prairieland. Nothing could be seen but the barren earth, the clear sky and the railroad ties on which I was to walk to get back to Topeka. My heart stood still when the brakeman got off with me. He was the same man who had accompanied the conductor. I had visions of being killed by this man on this lonely waste of land and thought how awful it would be -wearing the habit of the Sisters of Charity. The community was in no way to blame for my presumption in traveling alone, for Mother had asked me if I thought I was equal to the trip. Being too smart in those days, I boldly said, “I can travel anywhere while I can talk.” But God took care of me even if I was bold. The brakeman proved to be more of a gentleman than the conductor, for he left the car evidently just to care for me. He began by saying, “Don’t be afraid of me, I’ll go back to Topeka with you. I have a sister who went to school to the Sisters of St. Joseph at Kansas City and my mother and she helped the church and sisters whenever they had a bazaar.” I was so full of fear that I wasn’t even polite and when I got normal again I 1 �thought of his great kindness and have often wondered if any good fortune came his way from my poor prayers that only God knows I said for him. We finally reached Topeka. My heart was in my mouth. The brakeman took my long list of tickets to the ticket window which was in an old room in the shamble that seemed to be used for every kind of purpose. When he told the ticket agent what had happened he glared at me and said, “Couldn’t the d - fool read?” The man in the hotel office treated me more kindly and took me to the reception room on the second floor. I don’t remember seeing the brakeman again to even say “thank you” to him. Another episode happened here. I think all the people in Topeka had been notified that a one-man circus had come to town and to come and see the great curiosity at the hotel. These good people walked around me and seemed to view me from every angle. They brought me some supper about six o’clock, but I was too heart-sick to eat. I doubt whether I thanked them. About eight p.m. I had some real wild west experience. In one of the adjoining rooms, some men began to play cards. I could hear their talking through the transom, and, believe me, I never heard the like language before or since. At eleven fortyfive I heard the train whistle and the nice man in the office came to tell me that the train was coming. When I got downstairs, I said, “How much do I owe you?” He said, “Nothing!” I am sorry this has happened.” Another episode. When I boarded the train, I saw a porter and when he saw me, I know he thought I came from another world. I said to him, “Where is my berth?” He had to get over his fright before he could answer. He pointed to a berth that a man was just getting out of and said, “Get right in thar.” I said very coldly, “After you have changed the linen.” There was no sleep for me that night, but when I got settled for the day, I found the conductor quite different from the one who put me off at Topeka. The next stop really was Denver. This was the first time I had breathed freely for days. We changed there to the Rio Grande Route which went to San Francisco. I just got seated when a lovely young woman about forty came in and said, “Oh, you darling sister, I went to school to your sisters in San Francisco. My two little girls are going there now.” She asked me where I was going and in order to be friendly, I related my experiences. She was more than indignant. After telling me that her father was chief-ofpolice of San Francisco, Captain Douglas, he happened in. They had attended a police convention in Chicago. When he heard what had happened in my regard he said, “Sister, you’ll have no more such experiences if I have to take you to Virginia City myself.” The Captain visited around in the train and after a while came to me with a young man, Mr. Ferguson, who was said to be an assayer in the mines and was just returning with his bride from Boston. I became acquainted with the young bride and discovered that she had gone to school with some girls in Boston who were friends of mine. They had gone to the school of Notre Dame Namur. This, of course, brought up a new interest and the couple assured Captain Douglas that they would take care of me until they landed me at St. Mary’s School, Virginia City. I had to stay with Mr. and Mrs. Ferguson in Reno over night until the next day when the train left at noon. We reached Virginia City at three p.m. It seems that I had been promised, or some sister, three months before. As the arrival of the only train that came to the city was always an event, all the senior girls would go down to meet the anticipated sister; 2 �but after three months had passed and no sister came, there were but three girls about seventeen years old at the station the day I arrived. They seemed wild with delight and one of them joyously remarked -- “Oh, welcome Sister Expectation.” I didn’t make them any wiser to my name. The fact is, I didn’t have one. The girls took me from the Fergusons and brought me to St. Mary’s. The sisters were also delighted for they had been expecting me for months. “What is your name,” they asked. I told them Mother said I would get a name when I reached my mission and that if anyone asked me my name while I was on the train, I was to say, “Sister Mary.” It was a worthwhile thought, for if I had had to give my family name, I would be spelling it yet. Having arrived on November second, I nearly got Most Honored Father’s name whose feast is nearest to November second, but the sisters said not to give me Charles Borromeo because the children would be calling me all kinds of names. They looked back in the prayer-book to October twenty-fourth and said that I should be called Raphael in honor of the guide of travelers for he surely got me there. When the sisters heard how I got there, Sister Angelica O’Hallaron considered me a special charge and said, “If you are not all you should be some punishment will come to you for I told Sister Phillipe Berry (an old sister who had gone to Emmitsburg to end her days) to follow the Seminary Sisters every time they went out and tell the Lord to send [us] the one destined for Virginia City. From then on when a reprimand was in order, I was reminded of Sister Phillipe. As I look back on the first few years spent in Virginia City I remember when I went to bed at night the food I had for serious reflections -- often thinking, “This is the way I’ll be when dead!” All the work was done in the bowels of the earth and when the children were dismissed from school everything was as still as death -- absolutely nothing doing above ground. After rising at four and attending to little duties, we climbed the mountain side to go to Mass -- no paved roads as we enjoy in these days! We had to go out to Mass every day in the week with the exception of one or two days when we had Mass in our Chapel. For about six months in the year we ploughed through snow up to our waists. When we reached the church, we would shake our clothes which were perfectly dry owing to the dryness of the climate. It never rained in summer for we lived above the clouds the second highest point in the United States, I believe -- eight thousand feet above sea level. When we returned from Mass which was usually said about seven, we ate breakfast sometimes in the shadows in order to see the sunrise over hundreds of mountain peaks -- the like of which I have never seen elsewhere. The school was one of the finest we had in those days. The children had very bright minds, being the sons and daughters of university and college graduates who came west to seek their fortunes -- real adventurers! While I didn’t reach Virginia City in Hey Dey, the slogan was even in my time, “Go west, young man, go west.” Many had made and many had lost their fortunes. We had three girls at the school whose mother was matron at the poor house, and she told us they had thirty-three multi-millionaires who all boasted of great wealth in their day. ‘Twill be always so where money is concerned. 3 �I was appointed to teach the seventh and eighth grade boys and as I said before, they had such fine minds and were of such sterling character. I have not met the like anywhere else. It was my duty to answer the doorbell after three p.m. when school was out. On one occasion Sister Baptista Lynch (R.I.P.) who was Sister Servant at the time said to me, “There will be a gentleman here today -- a Mr. Mackey who is a great friend of the Community and to whom we are much indebted for what the Sisters of Charity have here in Virginia City.” Anyone who knew Sister Baptista can imagine just how I was instructed. I was told to be most cordial and if he offered to shake hands with me not to refuse. I was to invite him in and say, “I shall get the sisters here right away. I’m sure they will be so glad to see you.” John arrived about three-thirty and while he was polished and cordial, I would never have taken him for a millionaire, although I had never come in contact with one until I met Mr. Mackey. He was well dressed of course, a man of about sixty-five years old -- had gray hair then but it must have been somewhat sandy in his early days. His face was well freckled, but as I said, he was polished for all of that. I ushered him into our little parlor and went to get the sisters. Most of them had never met him before like myself, but as a matter of courtesy inquired about “Madame” Mackey and the Princess… The hospital in Virginia City, which was one of the finest, as well as the school were gifts of all the miners, but especially the successful ones who made their money there. The hospital had an eight or ten acre lot with a fine iron fence all around it. It was a four story brick building. The school was a two-story building with a basement. The sisters lived in a frame cottage on the same grounds as the school. It was said that many of the finest minds were developed out of St. Mary’s School and its financial backing helped many poor when sickness or death overtook the families. Mr. Mackey paid for all the drinking water used in the hospital and school. The water used in operating the mines was obtained from the melting snows of winter and conducted through flumes over the hundreds of mountain peaks to the mines. The drinking water was brought by pipe from Lake Tahoe on the border of California and Nevada and seemed in those days as valuable as diamonds. Indeed ‘twas said that God never intended that man should live there, for it never rained. It was no place for man to live and God threw in the silver in order to give him some reward for ever attempting it. There was absolutely no vegetation except the sage brush. A few Chinese who made an attempt at gardening had to do so by irrigation. If it didn’t snow, and that copiously, there would be no work for the miners when summer came. I can recall when the boys would rush in and say, “Sister, Mr. Coleman asked for the sisters and children to pray for snow.” He was the Editor of the Virginia City Chronicle. On one occasion I remember our prayers were more than answered, for it snowed so much the children could not get near the school for days. Mark Twain was the first editor of the paper, but this Mr. Coleman was not far behind him in intelligence. I recall the last verse of a poem he wrote after being snowed in. It read thus: “The snow on the roof is six feet high, And that in the yard is ten, And now, O Lord, if you’ll only let up, We’ll never say “snow again!” Our dear Sister Gertrude Dooling, who died here at St. Mary’s a few months ago, immigrated with her family in the early fifties from Albany, New York, to seek their fortune 4 �also. She came to the Community when sixteen years of age while Virginia City was making its history. Her family figured in the making of it. Her brother, Maurice Dooling, I read recently, was the greatest Supreme Court Judge San Francisco ever had -- so much so, that his son, Sister’s nephew, was appointed to replace his father when he died. An uncle, her mother’s brother, Rt. Rev. Patrick Manogue figured in the history of Virginia City, too. He arrived there when sixteen years of age, and since, as I have said before, no law or order existed in his day, ‘twas said that whenever he came on the scene, his dignity and personality accounted for so much that all disputes, whatever they may have been, ceased. He dug the earth as the other miners did, but the engineers wanted him with them, so they made him one of them in short order since he had such a good mind. This brought him seven dollars a day. Then the assayers wanted him to join them and they taught him their line of work. This paid him ten dollars a day. He made some investments as well, and one day he surprised all his friends by telling them he was going to study for the priesthood. He spent his money in studying at Paris, Innsbruck, Louvain and finally went to Rome where he was ordained and returned to America for the San Francisco Diocese. He was sent to Virginia City later while many of the miners were still there. Through the genuine love these miners bore him, they erected a church, St. Mary’s of the Mountains, which equaled any of its kind in Europe. After twelve years, the San Francisco Diocese had attained such proportions that it was considered well to make a new diocese to be called the Sacramento Diocese and he was appointed the first Bishop. He was ever after called the “Miner Bishop” and he seemed to glory in that title. He came to see us here at St. Mary’s on one occasion. I found him to be all I had heard of him -- the personification of dignity and a genuine priest. I remember he said, “My sisters are the nearest to heaven in America, and I’m sure will some day merit their reward.” There were others among the multi-millionaires who figured in the history of these days, the Fairs whose two daughters went to school at St. Mary’s and later married and played their part in New York society, the Sutros, Floods, and O’Briens who lived in California. Another rich man was “Sandy Bowers of Washoe Valley” who is said on one occasion, when celebrating some gala feast, to have thrown green-backs from the second floor piazza of the International Hotel into a mob of people in the street below who scrambled fiercely for them. He built a residence for himself and wife in Washoe Valley a few miles from Virginia City and was said to have had so much money that the doorknobs of the house were made of gold. It was related too, that an interior decorator accompanied him and his wife to select the furniture for the new house. I do not know whether any of the gold knobs and fine furniture still remains but I do know that Sandy lost his great fortune; and after God took him to Himself his wife was telling fortunes for a living and was advertised in San Francisco as “The Seer of the Washoe Valley.” By degrees the mines were being worked out. Day and night men were employed in working them. Even on Sunday the work went on and some priest remarked, “There will come a time when they’ll have no work Sunday or Monday.” That time came a few years after I was sent to Santa Barbara. Whole families of six or eight children would take their departure for Montana or Colorado where they were working lead and copper mines. Finally, the hospital and school were closed. I never heard what use was made of them, if any, after the sisters left. 5 �This wouldn’t be a tale of the past unless some of the pupils, those grand characters, intelligent lads, figured in it too. Every Saturday, the school holiday, they’d take their burros and start out “prospecting.” I had to listen to each one in turn Monday morning before the opening of classes and seem intensely interested in the veins in the mountain peaks and their great value which they could determine as well as any assayer. When our school closed in the latter part of June, we had classes every morning during the summer for the public-school children to instruct them for their First Holy Communion. The first morning some boys ran in breathless to tell me that [Cory] was outside. Everybody seemed afraid of him, myself included, and I had to do some fast thinking on disciplining before he came in. Among other things, they told me that he shot at the teacher in the public school the week before but struck the clock over her head and sent the teacher and pupils flying out of the room. I decided to put [Cory] in the front row of seats right in front of my desk in order that he couldn’t see what was going on in back of him. When it came to reciting [Cory], of course, had never studied Catechism, but by the time he finished, which occupied the two months of school vacation, he knew more that when he began. I had him repeat the answers after I had said them first, then he would look around at the boys as much as to say, “Didn’t I do well?” All the time I was teaching that first day, I was trying to think out what to do with him when school was dismissed. A bright thought came to me, and before I dismissed the class, I said, “[Cory], these children are a perfect nuisance the way they stay around and annoy the sisters nearly all day instead of going home. Will you please see they do not loiter around and that the grounds are cleared as soon as they are dismissed?” The venture proved a great success. [Cory] saw to it that there were no loiterers around the school until the instruction school closed for that summer. I told him too that if he would chop some wood for the sisters, we would give him his dinner. We burnt no coal - it was too expensive. From then on, he chopped all the wood. True to his reputation, however, he still had the “wild west” in his make-up. On one occasion when two sisters went to do some shopping and the street was blockaded. [Cory] was attacking a driver of a big mule wagon, but when they saw the two sisters they said, “Cheese it, [Cory], the sisters.” When he heard this, he flew and the poor driver jumped up on his seat and drove away not from fear of the sisters, but with fear and dread of [Cory]…. I have often reverted in memory to those days and know from experience that the boys were the soul of honor. They had no such dissipations as the boys who lived in cities. The school was visited daily by a Priest who possessed every quality of a model priest. He volunteered when ordained in Ireland to come to the “wild west.” I can recall the time when he would come into the room and say, “[Lawrence], what were you doing on your way to school this morning?” Lawrence would answer, “I was ‘rocking’ Jimmie McMurchey’s cabin.” Even in my time, old miners lived in old shambles on the mountain side, for there were no women they could marry in mining days and preferred to remain bachelors till the Lord called them to Himself. “Why were you ‘rocking’ the cabin”, the Priest would say. “I’ll tell you, Father. When he sees us coming, he comes out and curses and swears at us.” Father would turn his back on the class and face my desk and with a suppressed smile would say, “Don’t forget Lawrence, you’ll be old yourself some day.” 6 �And again, [Pat], whose forebears came from the land of saints and scholars, was absent one morning from school, much to my surprise, for he was a regular attendant. When he finally came, he said, “Sister, I was sick this morning”. I took it for granted he was telling the truth, but later he came to tell me that he had told me a lie. Instead of coming to school in the morning he had gone into the tunnel to enjoy a smoke and fell asleep. When he woke up it was too late for school. I commended him highly for telling the truth, but added, “Do your parents know that you smoke?” He said, “No”. “Well,” said I, “God was good to you for you might have been brought home to them mangled to pieces when they supposed you were in school”. The tunnels had but one track used for dumping the earth after the ore was extracted. I’m sure he believed me and never tried it again. I took care of my own classroom but was never permitted to sweep it when any of the boys were around. On one occasion I complained of papers on the floor and appointed a monitor to make a list of the delinquents. One day my own name headed the list. I called the class to order, made a most humble apology and told them I hoped it would never happen again. “Them days have gone forever.” I know there were many sisters who preceded me who, if they were still living, could write more than I ever could of those days spent in Virginia City, Nevada. While I was never down in a mine, I think I knew quite as much as if I had been for I had to listen to everything that interested the boys. May those days ever be a lesson to me in many ways, those days when I lived so near to God and my duty. [Editor’s Note: On page 4, Sister Raphael writes that Mark Twain was the first editor of the Virginia City Chronicle which seems inaccurate; but he was definitely a writer for the Territorial Enterprise. On page 5, she indicates that Father Manogue had been a miner in Viriginia City; he had been miner in California.] 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Creagh, Sister Raphael D.C., "Memories of Virginia City", Memoir Subject The topic of the resource "Creagh, Sister Raphael, D.C. Virginia City, NV Silver mining St. Mary’s School and Orphan Asylum Manogue, Reverend Patrick St. Marie Louise Hospital Silver kings Mackey, John Description An account of the resource In October of 1864, three sisters left San Francisco and journeyed by steamer, train and stage to Virginia City, Nevada Territory where they founded St. Mary’s School & Asylum and later St. Marie Louise Hospital in 1875. After more than three decades, the sisters withdrew from these works in Virginia City and left Nevada only to return in the 1950s to found St. Theresa’s School in Carson City. In her 1937 memoir, Sister Raphael Creagh shares her memories of Virginia City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Creagh, Sister Raphael, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity, Province of the West Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1937 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gainey, Sister Margaret Ann (Editor) Marca, Nicole (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource "Copyright 2020 Daughters of Charity Seton Provincialate Los Altos Hills, CA" Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Paper PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DCLosAltos_Memories of Virginia City by Sister Raphael Creagh.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Virginia City, Nevada 1891-1897 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Education https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c529b9e0e6f7da7c372414df964b7ff0.jpg c66e5c996e6abc7f81716dfc6af51dcd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Motherhouse, Daughters of Charity of the Province of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton Subject The topic of the resource Convent Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daughters of Charity of the Province of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/070512a3b50d6d0807c6e16f97c39530.jpg dff68e10b00d53ca20e0f3659bc8c2f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Motherhouse and Archives, Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise (Emmitsburg, Md) Subject The topic of the resource Convent Archive Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise (Emmitsburg, Md) Description An account of the resource Motherhouse and Archives buildings, Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 2020 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Relation A related resource N/A Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context N/A Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise (Emmitsburg, Md) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication. Contact archives staff for appropriate forms and contact information. https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a52f17dd017230dd9a3162f17a1235c0.jpg 391373f895bd5ba3b3c7ca81002fc48b https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4d0c38e80141ee88cd716ba53b489938.mp3 cc5d534a878695b19d8ad51f7f9dc2f6 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/86fc6e2bc1be20ebb94df24a22c84e93.pdf ec131ac65db36d0dd1c37e7a42d82e31 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC Interviewee: Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons, SC Date: July 1, 1983 Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC Date edited: November 20, 2020 Sr. Francis Maria: Now you were one of our missionaries who went to Puerto Rico. And maybe you’d tell us a little something about how you came to go to Puerto Rico, and how long you were there, and any memories you have of your days there. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, you know we had become interested in the foreign missions, more or less, Sister. And one group had already gone to Guayama, Puerto Rico. It seemed attractive. And I volunteered. And I went with [Sister Therese Alma Carro] and Sister whom we called Sister Inez, [Sister Anita Agnes Whalen]. And we came back in [1946], Sister... We're skipping a few... Everybody were all very happy and very active there. We had the eight grades, of course. I think there were maybe four missions in the country that the sisters... Sr. Francis Maria: Were you one of those sisters who went out to teach? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister, the others were more versed in Spanish. And at first I did not go until later when I could help, not so much with the language as with other little things. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, when you went there, Sister, did you go down there to teach in the school? And did you do that? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. I think that was the idea, the hope of everybody who went, Sister. We had been teaching here and we knew the school there was well-established. Really, it was not too unlike our parochial schools here and we could have every confidence. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember the grades that you taught there, Sister? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, Sister. I had the eighth grade, Sister. It was more or less departmental to more than it is or was at home here. Teachers who, of course, taught Spanish. [Sister Maria Rosa Delgado] was one of our special teachers. �Sr. Francis Maria: Who are some of the sisters who were there with your time, do you remember any of these sisters? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister Therese Alma went down. Sister Inez, whom she was called, and [Sister Miriam Gertrude Geis], of course, were there. And [Sister Irene Clare Gallagher], who is now and since that time. We came up in ‘46 and she went to the Virgin Islands and is still there. [Sister Teresa Agnes Gilrane] was there and Sister Gertrude something, who died a few years after coming home. She's not living now. Yes, I meant to ask Sister Miriam about that name because it has been familiar to me until yesterday or today. Sr. Francis Maria: We all forget names. Sr. Margaret Anna: We always forget our own. Sr. Francis Maria: Was the convent still on the upper floor of the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: It was there, Sister. I think it was the third floor. We didn't mind climbing in those days. And on the convent, too, was a roof that we enjoyed. We were there always unless in the chapel or school. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you recreate on the roof? Sr. Margaret Anna: We did, Sister, yes, and it was delightful. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember any particular recreations, what you did at recreation? Sr. Margaret Anna: �Well, I think we did little singing, Sister. It wasn't difficult. The time flew. Recreation, Sister. But not too long before we came up, someone gave us a turkey live and of course we were anxious to taste it. And some little boy whom we had a lot of contact with, it seemed... Oh, he said... I guess we were talking about it. And he said, well, he could. So we had a circus on that roof. We had to resort to somebody a little bit stronger than this little lad. He was, what, I think about 12 years old. Sr. Francis Maria: To kill the turkey and prepare it for you. Now, you came up, then, in 1946. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: And I guess for the sisters who were stationed there or missioned there it was a sad occasion... Sr. Margaret Anna: It was, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...to leave the mission. To leave. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, the priests – the Redemptorists – were anxious. They felt they were in need of high school teaching. And we really didn't realize how anxious they were about it or… However, [Mother Mary Benita Kane] was in office at that time, felt and she knew that we couldn't one year after another, in addition of two staff, a high school sister. And that was the reason thatSr. Francis Maria: And then another order came in to replace you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, some from the west, Sister. The middle west. I think they are not there at all now. The school doesn't... I believe it doesn't exist. We heard that rather recently. Sr. Francis Maria: Now what about the packing up and the going and the trip home again? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were anxious about how we were going to get home because we couldn't travel just with our handbag home, you know, but we did come up by boat, Sister, and we enjoyed it, and we were so glad to see the fresh fruit when we got here. Although we did have plenty of bananas �down there as you know, and oranges. I think early in August that we came and we really enjoyed the trip once we got on the boat. Sr. Francis Maria: What were the last days like in Puerto Rico? Busy, I suppose? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes, of course we were busy, Sister, and everybody not knowing where she was going the next month or so. Sr. Francis Maria: Into the Motherhouse, did you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Someone meet you at the boat? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think anyone from here met us, Sister. There were... That is... I don't think anyone from the Motherhouse met us, but we were met with a couple of friends. Everybody had a couple of friends or relatives who... I don't know how he managed to get the date. I think the priest, I forget who he was now. I think he took care of those things. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. In other words, you didn't have the responsibility... Sr. Margaret Anna: No, we didn't. Sr. Francis Maria: ...of arranging your transportation. Sr. Margaret Anna: No. Sr. Francis Maria: But did you come to Convent when you returned before goSr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did come to Convent, Sister. And... �Sr. Francis Maria: You said it was August and school, of course, wouldn't be starting ’til September? So did you have a little rest? Do you remember anything about that period? Sr. Margaret Anna: Indeed, Sister, and I think that around that time up in Bergen County was opening for a residence. Sr. Francis Maria: Was it Mount Saint Andrew’s? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yeah. My mistake. Thank you, Sister. Yeah, that was rather new, I think, then using it in that... Sr. Francis Maria: In that capacity now. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. And so I remember being there for several weeks during the summer. Sr. Francis Maria: Just to get your sites fixed. Sr. Margaret Anna: That’s right and keep from being too idle. Sr. Francis Maria: Yeah. Did the children know that you were going? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think they did. Oh, yes, they did, Sister, because the parents wouldn't be for the benefit of those who succeeded us getting the children mentally adjusted. Sr. Francis Maria: Make the transition easy. Sr. Margaret Anna: That's right. Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember whether the children showed sorrow or regret? How did they behave? Like our own children would with sisters leaving whom they loved? �Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I suppose they did, Sister, but I think that didn't impress us as much as other things. Sr. Francis Maria: What impressed you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were sorry that the mission could not continue. I think at that time the mission in Santurce had been opened several years before, so that was still... And that was down near San Juan where our sisters were. Sr. Francis Maria: So was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Please, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Down at the southern coast, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: So if a choice had to be made of closing one, it would have been Guayama, rather than Santurce? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, well. Yes, it was, Sister. And there was the need there as the priest thought of high school teaching. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you visit the sisters down at that other mission very often? Or did they come to visit you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. We didn't visit too often, Sister. Every now and then we would have to go down around San Juan to do a little shopping, and that made it helpful to get to visit them. Before we did come up, we all went over to St. Thomas and spent a delightful week. Sr. Francis Maria: In the Virgin Islands. Sr. Margaret Anna: �That's right, Sister. We used to enjoy when the sisters went down on a mission to the Virgin Islands. They usually stopped for some days, maybe a week, with us. And that was always a big treat. Sr. Francis Maria: Sure it was a big treat for them, too. What kind of contact during the years you were there did you have with the sisters up here in New Jersey? Was there correspondence back and forth? Sr. Margaret Anna: I guess I think it was personal, Sister. Whether you... Not in any formal or organized way. And I think now and then we heard from the Motherhouse. I guess I think we did write more or less regularly. Sr. Francis Maria: Who was the Sister Servant during those days? Sr. Margaret Anna: You mean up here, Sister? Sr. Francis Maria: No. I mean in Puerto Rico and in the last days, in the closing days. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, when I went there, I succeeded [Sister Mary Anita Lane] until I left in '46. Sr. Francis Maria: So the responsibility, in a sense of closing the mission, was on your shoulders. I know that you had the help of the other sisters. How did you go about it? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think, Sister, there was any really set plan. Everybody was thoughtful and they understood conditions. Everybody did. And there was no problem at all, Sister, getting things done that had to be taken care of. Sr. Francis Maria: So you don't remember hectic days or any particular difficulties? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think not, Sister. No. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, Sister, I think that the way you've explained your last days there in Puerto Rico is probably the way that you've gone ahead with your whole life. No, no difficulties. �Sr. Margaret Anna: Right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Nothing was the problem. Everything took care of itself in the hands of God. And after you came from Puerto Rico, Sister, what other work then were you assigned to? Sr. Margaret Anna: That year, Sister, I went to the Carmelites. Sr. Francis Maria: Englewood? Englewood? St. Cecilia's? Sr. Margaret Anna: Next to it. Sr. Francis Maria: No? Next to that in Teaneck? Sr. Margaret Anna: Mount. Carmel [School in Tenafly, New Jersey] Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, Mount Carmel in Ridgewood? No? Well, try again. Never mind, you went to a mission in Bergen County. Did you go as a teacher or as a principal or as a… Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, in those days, Sister, at least most of us did teaching, as well as trying to act as principal. Sr. Francis Maria: Trying to act as principal. I'm sure you did a beautiful job. Well, maybe a little later on... You're shaking your head no. Of course you did. You've done a very beautiful job. Well, Sister Margaret, you've been then at Saint Anne Villa since you left Marillac House. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, that's right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: And would you go back in your memory a little bit to the day you entered and just tell us what year that was? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, my land, Sister. The year is easy – 1919. �Sr. Francis Maria: That's all we'll ask you, Sister. But you've traveled along and I know a happy road since then. Sr. Margaret Anna: Thank God. Yes, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Well, Sister, you've been very good with your memories. I am going to now release you from those memories to move into the present because in about two minutes your lunch will be served. And I know that you'd like to get to the dining room and have your lunch. And I thank you very much. And these are very precious memories that you've... Sr. Margaret Anna: Nice speaking with you, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: ...left with us. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Margaret Ann Fitzsimmons, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Colegio de San Antonio; Guayama, Puerto Rico; Mount Carmel School, Ridgewood, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1, 1983 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons describes her years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant July 1, 1983 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c315b9c8b4b3a2ba229d4cabf46a6a4d.PNG 191ffefedb600320aa608953dfd838c3 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3fd1f86b8beaf362c183940296a11eb1.mp3 42e3635d6c2dce6b84609019505f2e1b https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c07abc670d0075ff9d418b42f598ca92.pdf 1ca802a78aec10183893ca315c66be85 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 1 of 32 JK: This interview is with Sister Kevin Marie Flynn. The interviewer is Jane Kenamore. We're at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth in Leavenworth, Kansas. We're at the Mother House, and the date is June 27th, 2017. So, Sister Kevin Marie, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. KMF: You're welcome. JK: I think you're the only SCL right now who was born in Ireland, though there used to be several. Am I right on that? [00:00:37] KMF: Right, yes. JK: Can you tell us about growing up there. Who were your parents? What are your early memories of County Longford and so on? [00:00:49] KMF: Ok. I actually was born on the border of Langford and Leitrim and our address… JK: And where is that location? [00:00:57] KMF: Leitrim, it's sort of close to Dublin. I mean it's about six miles east of Dublin. JK: Oh, ok. KMF: And it would be more central, I think, than any other county. You don't hear too many people coming from Longford or Leitrim. It's not as popular as Cork or Tipperary or any of those places that a lot of the Sisters used to come from, Limerick especially. I was born the ninth in a family, a large family, and we were born in the country. It was a countryside. It was a very popular countryside. It was at a crossroads, and we became very wellknown as the Flynns from the crossroads. It was very popular for sports, for gatherings, because it was at a crossroads. And my childhood, as I look back upon it, was a beautiful experience of growing in a large family and having lots of fun and being wild in a way, because we were always out in nature and doing beautiful things out. The stars and the sun and the sky, and all of that were all very important in our lives. JK: And you were the ninth. How many were…? [00:02:12] KMF: I was the ninth girl. JK: How many…? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 2 of 32 KMF: I was the ninth, yes, and there were nine of us, as I said, nine. There were five boys ahead of me and two girls, three girls ahead of me. JK: Three girls. KMF: Five boys and four girls. JK: So, you were the baby of the…? [00:02:28] KMF: And I was the baby of the family. JK: Ok. KMF: There were three of us at the end that… there were probably six years, seven years between the three of us. The oldest of the three would be seven about maybe even… The next one was born and then I was born and she was three or four, the one ahead of me. JK: And can you tell us about your parents? [00:02:50] KMF: My parents were… I don't know really too much about their courtship, 'cause they didn't… We didn't talk about that that much. We took it for granted, I guess. But my dad was from the area, but my mother was from another country area, and she had large families and so did he. He was an orphan actually of a big family, and they were raised in an orphanage in Dublin—my dad's family. JK: Oh, they were? Oh. KMF: And there were five or six boys and I think a couple of girls but we never did know the girls because they died younger. So, I never met them, my aunts on his side. But his five brothers were very, very close to each other that I remember as we grew up they would come to visit. And two or three of them would go off visiting by themselves and have a good time together. So, they were very close, my dad's family. JK: Did he ever talk about growing up in an orphanage? [00:03:54] KMF: Not too much, no. JK: It must not have been… KMF: Never talked about it too much, no, but I don't think they were there that long. JK: Oh good. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 3 of 32 KMF: And I'm not even sure of how my grandfather died. That didn't seem to be very important history for them, I think. But just because I was the youngest they used to tell me as I was growing up that I was spoiled, but, of course, I never thought I was. But my bigger brothers and sisters, my brothers especially, they were in the working stage while I was young and they were very good to me. They owned cars for the first time and they'd be coming home from something or another and they'd pick us all up from school—you know, that kind of thing—which didn't happen to any of the rest of them in the family. And my brothers often gave me money, and they were very good, especially one of them who what my godfather. But later when I went home after I was a Sister—I went home for the first time after several years over here—he said to me one day, "Did you ever know why I was your godfather and not Francy?" (phonetic) who was the oldest of the crowd. And I said, "No. I just thought you were dying to be my godfather." And he said, "No, not exactly." (Laughs) He said, "I had to be because Francy refused. He did not want to have anything to do with having a baby sister." JK: Oh, how funny. [00:05:21] KMF: So, you know how older brothers are when the parents are still having children. You know they're thinking oh, my God, another baby. But I never saw that in their lives. I never saw that in their behavior toward me. I was always spoiled, and I always had a great time. And I do remember my childhood growing up was always full of fun. JK: Must have been. KMF: And one of adventure and play and just a good time. And faith was a very important… being Catholic was… We never thought of being anything else but Catholic, because everybody was Catholic there. But I think that my faith grew more from my home than it did ever from my church because the church was kind of thought about as the place where you receive the sacraments and the bigger or the most important part of being Catholic. But the way, we were raised was always very faith-filled. Like, for instance, we had always had the rosary at night and always as a family, you know, even as teenagers that had to kneel down beside the chair and said the rosary. The Angelus would ring in the middle of the day and everybody would stop and pray the Angelus. If there were men out working the field they'd take their hats off. If you had a drink of water like this you'd say, "Oh, blessings on the water. Thank you God." God was always part of our everyday life and the providence of God taking care of us. So, we lived that way. You know it was just very faith-filled, but we never thought of it as being faith-filled. We thought of it more as just the ordinary way of living. So, I think that's what has �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 4 of 32 stayed with me through the years is that faith that I saw in my parents and in my older brothers and sisters as I grew up, and not just them but in everyone around us. You know it was just a… JK: You mentioned earlier that your older…. yes, it had to be an older brother was a priest. KMF: Yes. JK: Which brother was that? [00:07:27] KMF: He was the third one from the top. JK: Ok. KMF: Third one down. And he had gone to a seminary over there. JK: And how did he decide to be a priest? [00:07:36] KMF: Bishops of that time went over there to… Well, he decided on his own, I suppose, to go to the seminary. Some other priest might have… He might have looked at somebody and said, "Oh, I might like to do something like that." But Bishops would go… How he got to the States—Bishops would go over to different seminaries and speak about the need of priests over here, and then he would offer them the last two years of their theology over here in the States. If they wanted to come to his diocese he would pay for their theology. And so that's how a lot of them are recruited to come over to the States. JK: And which diocese did he go to? [00:08:23] KMF: The Lincoln Diocese. He was in the Lincoln Diocese. JK: In Nebraska. KMF: In Nebraska. JK: Ok. KMF: So, the reason then… It was really through him that I got over here and, in a sense, because I went to a boarding school. It was called a finishing school, and I always smile when I say finishing school because people think, oh, you went to a finishing school? Like it's a big uppity. But it was just an ordinary convent school, boarding school, and it was over in County Mayo which is the west of Ireland. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 5 of 32 So, I boarded over there, and there were lots of other girls with me and everybody from different counties. And if you were from a different county it as like you were in another country. You're from County Longford, where's that? You know that type of thing even though it was all small. It was small. But Sisters used to come and speak to us about their missionary work, and they would be from Africa, Australia, England, France. They were all missionaries. It was the time in the church of missionary work, going over to a country, converting them to Catholicism and that type of thing. And so, it fascinated me, their stories about the people they worked with. And it also fascinates me to this day that Sisters then were able to do what they did, because these Sisters would talk to us. Now this is '88, and so these Sisters would… It would be a long time ago when they would be speaking to us. And they would tell us about their work and so many of them would go over to Africa or Australia or another place. They would start a hospital. They would have their own doctors. I don't know how they got educated as women, but I think it was because they were Sisters they could be educated as women to doctors and no one thought of them as women. That's the only thing I can think of. JK: So, the doctors were women? [00:10:29] KMF: Right. JK: That's fantastic. KMF: They were doctors from among themselves and nurses. All of the people who went over to do that missionary work were Sisters from among their community. And they would go over to an area, a poor area, and they would start a hospital in a very small area, and not much... It would be just like a little shack probably to begin with. They would train the native people in different hospital work, in different areas of the work. And pretty soon they began to educate the nursing and they began to get their own doctors and began to build within that community their own doctors and their own native people. And then the hospital would expand. And that's how they developed, the same as schools. JK: Interesting. [00:11:22] KMF: They started with themselves and they worked for the people. They didn't work for themselves. JK: What was that order that you're talking about? [00:11:29] KMF: That would be different orders. This one was…. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 6 of 32 JK: Various. KMF: They were the Medical Missionaries of Mary. That was their title and that's what they did. They did a lot of nursing. But a lot of different communities would speak to us. But that was the one that appealed to me—the Medical Missionaries of Mary. JK: So, why didn't you join that one instead of coming over here? [00:11:49] KMF: Well, this is the story. Then they left. I went home then at Christmas and I said, "Oh, yes, by the way, I'm going to go to Africa and join the…" It was kind of a nonchalant kind of thing, and you didn't make a big fuss over the different things. And so, my mother said, "Africa?" And I said, "Yes, these Sisters had come," and I told her the story, you know, how exciting it was and all that. So, then my brother came home in the meantime or maybe six months later or whatever because you couldn't do anything within a year. There was a war going on in the first place, and anytime you had to leave the country it took a whole year to prepare and to get a… So, anyway, he came home and my mother must have said to him, "Talk her out of going to Africa, and maybe she could go to the States." So, he said to me one day when he was there, "Well, why would you want to go to Africa?" And I said, "Because those Sisters were from Africa, and that's…" And he said, "Why don't you come to the United States?" And I said, "Sisters never came and talked to us about the United States. I don't know anything about it. I don't know any Sisters there." And he said, "Well, I know Sisters," because he had our Sisters in his parish. The Sisters of Charity were, and they were also attached to a hospital. It was Falls City, I think, Nebraska. And they had a school, and they had a hospital there. So, I said, "Well," I said, "oh, well, all right. What's the difference, Africa or America?" And it really wasn't to me at that time. So, I still have a kind of an inkling for Africa, but I wouldn't think of going there now. That's for sure. JK: (Laughs) KMF: It was the missionary aspect of it that attracted me. JK: I see. KMF: The adventure. Let me say the adventure. JK: So, you decided on the adventure of the United States. [00:13:45] KMF: So, yes. I was finishing school and so then I said… He said let me write to the leader. Let me write to the superior of the Sisters of Charity. And at that point the mother superior was Mother Francesca O'Shea. She was from Ireland. So, of course, that didn't hurt, you know, the fact that she was from Ireland. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 7 of 32 So, it didn't take very long. I came sight unseen so to speak. They didn't know who they were getting. They knew him, and he had a good reputation among the Sisters. So, when I arrived I stayed with him. I think I stayed with him a week or so before I came to the community here. JK: Other than The Wizard of Oz, what did you know about Kansas? [00:14:29] KMF: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. JK: (Laughs) KMF: Nothing at all. It's sight unseen for them and for me. JK: What were your first impressions of the Mother House and Leavenworth in general? [00:14:41] KMF: I had stayed with my brother at the rectory, and I was bored to pieces. You know I'd think, oh, my God, I want to get out of this place soon, because everywhere I went he'd say, watch when you go out there when you do… because I was the only woman around. The only girl around, I should say. And so, it wasn't that he was careful, but it was curtailing for me not to have any young people. So, the entrance day was September 8th, I think, '47, and so he brought me down to the Mother House and I was introduced to the people I should be first. And then I was brought into the novitiate, and this large crowd of young people my own age was there to greet me. There were 32 of them. And there were 32 just in my class alone, so I was just among young people again, and so that's what gave me life, to be truthful. JK: Oh, good. And there were other Irish Sisters there too, right? [00:15:43] KMF: There were other Irish Sisters but they were all a generation ahead of me. They were professed and they were middle age probably at that time, and I had no association with them that much at all because we were more on our own. Our schedule was not mingled with them for sure. Our schedule was to have classes and have training and have everything that we needed to become postulants and professed. And that would be two years time at least. So, I didn't really know. I might have met them but there was a generation between us. So, when you're at that age generation means a lot. JK: Oh, it does. [00:16:25] KMF: So, I associated a lot more, which was good in the aftermath as I look back on it, a lot more with the American crowd that I was in the midst of. And I made great friends and I loved it. I loved my novitiate. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 8 of 32 JK: Oh, good. KMF: I loved the different personalities and just being a part of them all. And being accepted, so well accepted. And there are people who still tell me some of the things that I said when I was there that they couldn't tell what in the world I was talking about. JK: Like, for instance? [00:16:57] KMF: Well, there's one Sister who tells me about… and I never remember saying it nor never do I remember but… and stories do change a little bit. But she said we were at table one day and I wanted milk, and it was a long table. And so the milk pitcher was down at the other end, and so I said to someone next me, "Would you see if there's any milk lurking in that jug down there at the end?" (Laughter) KMF: Now, she tells me that every time I see her because she's a little bit older than I am now. And I said, "Now, honest to God, Marcella, I don't think I remember saying that but whatever." So, there are lots that people say I said and all that, which I probably did. But we have lots of good stories about novitiate anyway besides just the stories I would… JK: Can you tell...? [00:17:52] KMF: I'll tell you this one story quickly. The Wren Day, St. Stephen's Day, is a big day in Ireland. And my first St. Stephen's Day here we were in the novitiate. Now, the novitiate is a place… Did anyone mention the novitiate to you yet? You know, being part of the novitiate? JK: Well, I would like more information. [00:18:13] KMF: It's segregated from the professed Sisters, and we have regulations of our own. We're in training so to speak. And there is a mistress of novices and a director over us. There are two people and they are our guides. And then we have each other. We don't mingle. We didn't mingle with the professed sisters. We had an area of our own and everything. It was our schedule. And that was to keep us from distraction and people who came because of their friends being there. They didn't see their friends that much. It was just different. But anyway, St. Stephens's Day in Ireland is a big day. They dress up. Do you know anything about St. Stephen's Day? No, you don't. JK: Not a lot. [00:18:54] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 9 of 32 KMF: They dress up and they go out Wrenning. Wrenning means you go from house to house and you demand money and they don't know who you are, and you sing a song. It's just a tradition and it's the day after Christmas, the very day after Christmas. It's a big tradition with young adults and children over there and then, you know, it… So, I got a couple of my friends and they, of course, loved anything from Ireland. And so I said, "Let's get dressed up and"—this is St. Stephen's Day—"and we will go down to the community room," which was out of our area. The community room was down where the professed Sisters were, where we weren't supposed to go. JK: I see. KMF: I said, "They won't know us because we're all dressed up, and we'll ask for a box of… we'll ask for something, and Mother Francesca will know what it means because she was from Ireland." So, I don't know if we snuck out or if we had time, but we went down to the basement and we got boxes and put them over our head and put a face in front and two eyes so they didn't know who we were, and we went down to the community room. And they were all playing cards at different tables. And we went to the superior's table or the officer's, the most important table, and we sang, "The wren, the wren, the king of all birds, get up…" and whatever it went. And Mother Francesca looked at us, and I think she knew that I was the ringleader of it. So, she went to the closest and gave us a big box of candy, chocolate. So, back we came and we were delighted with the chocolate of course, and we presented it to our mistress of novices. And she said, "Where'd you get this?" And then the story came out. And they said, "Elizabeth brought us down to celebrate the Wren Day." And then they… well, they got more punished than I did. I got away with it because I didn't know any better. But the two of them—their deceased since—but they never let me forget how I got them in trouble. JK: (Laughs) KMF: And I didn't get in trouble but they did. So, that was one of the fun things about it. JK: That's funny. So, has the novice training changed over time? [00:21:17] KMF: Oh it has changed a whole lot. Yes, because there aren't as many. JK: So, how is it different? [00:21:20] KMF: It's so, so different. There's only one or two to begin with. JK: Oh, that's true. KMF: That's the thing. And so they're mingling with us all the time. It's different completely. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 10 of 32 JK: Yes, ok. KMF: It's a whole different ballgame, uh-huh. JK: What was the most difficult adjustment in your new home? [00:21:36] KMF: My most difficult… in coming here would be learning the culture, but it didn't bother me that much because everybody was so darn friendly, you know, and they took you in. I just became friends with so many different ones, so many different personalities that I felt at home being around young people. That was really what did my novitiate for me. I don't remember the praying part of it that much and all that. We also had lots of fun things that we… There were a lot of fun personalities among the Sisters. They just kept life going. We had lots of different rules but the fun behind the rules was what really, as far as I'm concerned, was really what kept us going and the camaraderie together of so many young people wanting to do the same thing in life. You know that kind of thing was kind of encouraging to me. But the hardest thing for me was the eating and the food, getting used to the food was so different for me. But eating because we ate differently. We used the fork. The fork was just used the opposite in our hands, and so I was always looking around and trying to look at the mistress of novices and she was eating very sedately, you know, and I was next to her because the youngest was always next… So, I let silverware fall just about every meal. You know I was picking up something off the floor. But pretty soon I got used to it, but I do remember that as being a big, big adjustment. JK: Right. What were some of the rules that you had that you either got around or dealt with? [00:23:19] KMF: The silence was a big thing. Yes, the silence was a big thing, keeping quiet at certain times when you weren't able to talk. Those are the hardest for me because when we were able to talk and communicate you sort of had fun. And if you didn't have fun, you know, a schedule of fun, you always had fun just interacting, doing something on somebody or whatever. JK: When were you not allowed to speak? [00:23:41] KMF: Three in the afternoon was a quiet time—3:00 to 4:00, or 2:00 to 3:00 or something like that. JK: But you could eat… dinners or meals were not silent. [00:23:51] KMF: Some meals were silent too. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 11 of 32 JK: Oh, ok. KMF: There were just lots of different things. But we never… There were five or six of us still, four or five, and we can still talk about novitiate days even though they were just two years, you know, but they were the beginning and so we kind of hang in together. But you meet all kinds of Sisters along the way after that, you know, through life which is the biggest part for me of a great community life, meeting so many different ones. JK: Your first ministry involved teaching in elementary school as had most of the other young Sisters. [00:24:37] KMF: Mine was in Leadville, Colorado, and it was at a very high altitude, but I didn't even realize that at the time. I was just getting so used to so many different things that the altitude probably didn't bother me. But I do remember getting the measles while I was there—measles. And the place that we taught had a hospital as well as a school, and the Sisters from the hospital worked… lived together and the school Sisters lived together. And we lived in a kind of a dorm. It was an old hospital, a very old hospital, and our dorm was almost part of the hospital. And so I remember being in a hospital room very close to where I was living in the dorm. The cure for measles was lying in the dark six to seven days without lights. JK: I know they believed… well, at the time … KMF: I don't know what it was. JK: … they believed it would help prevent blindness, 'cause I guess blindness was a… KMF: Right, or something to that effect. JK: …side effect of the measles. [00:25:37] KMF: I just vaguely remembered how did I survive those seven days or whatever, because the room was stark and bare to begin with. But I got over it. I guess I did anyway. JK: And you didn't give it to anybody else? [00:25:48] KMF: I didn't give it to anybody else. So, that was good. JK: Oh, that's good. KMF: But Leadville had… There were lots of other strange things in Leadville because of the Sisters in the hospitals living together, you know, at that time. I learned a lot there about school. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 12 of 32 JK: You feel like it's a frontier town. Of course it is. [00:26:10] KMF: Uh-huh. And the other thing, my biggest problem there was just learning the ropes as being a part of the school system, being on faculty, because our report cards, for instance… I had a mentor from among the teachers. One Sister was assigned to me to keep me abreast on what was happening so to speak. And I remember when it was report card time… Are you familiar with report cards? JK: Oh, yes. [00:26:47] KMF: There are six sections and you fill in the first one for the first six weeks, I think, or the first six something or another. They get grades even, six… So, they bring it home to their parents and then they bring it back and you keep to the next time. And, well, I saw one of the Sisters working on hers long before it was time. And I thought, oh, my gosh, maybe I should start working on mine too. So, I worked on them and I had four or five of them done. And we had been teaching now close to six weeks. And so I saw the six spaces, so I gave them a grade. I had made out four or five report cards, and I had given them a grade for every week. JK: Oh, no. (Laughter) KMF: I had filled in the whole report card until this mentor said… I said, "Oh, I have already some of my report cards done." And she said, "Let me see them." And she just laughed and laughed and laughed when she saw them. And I'm thinking what is she laughing at? So, she said, "These are given one space." She said, "You have to do these over again." At that time asking for five more report cards was a big deal, so I did get into a little scrap over that one—not to be so quick and to ask questions. Money was another thing. We were taking up pagan baby money, and I didn't know the difference. We didn't use money in the novitiate, so I never learned American money. I had to learn it then and there and so you get it mixed up kind of. So, we were missing money turned in to the pagan babies or something. I can't recall what it was. Maybe it was music money. Oh, I know. It was music money that this kid was supposed to be… He was taking music lessons from one of our Sisters and the mother was sending the money with him daily or weekly for the lessons to pay exactly then and there. And we had a contest between the boys and the girls at the same time about who was going to make the most money for the pagan babies whether it was the boys or the girls. And this little guy was giving his music money so the boys would always be ahead. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 13 of 32 And so the day came when the bill went home for the music and the mother said, "I've been sending money with him every week." And I don't know how much it was. So, the next thing you know I was called and said, "You know, Jimmy Irwin."—I remembered his name—"He takes music lessons and he hasn't paid for his music, and the mom says she's been giving it to him every week." And then I said, "No. Oh, my gosh. That's the reason why the boys are ahead all the time." JK: (Laughs) KMF: The boys wanted to be ahead of the girls so it was a competition between the boys… So, we had to cough up… and so I didn't … the principal said to me, "We are ten dollars short of music money," or something. And she said, "We have to make that up." And I'm thinking I have no idea where we are going to get ten dollars. I said, "Maybe you can write to my brother and ask him for ten dollars." JK: (Laughs) KMF: So, anyway, that was one money deal but it turned out ok. JK: Were your classes as large as other people's…? [00:29:57] KMF: Oh, yes, they probably were. I don't remember much. I just survived, I think. Leadville was just a year. I was only there one year. JK: Only one year. Ok. [00:30:05] KMF: And then I was moved to… I think I was moved to Kansas City, Missouri, and it was easier each year because I began to know more and more. But the kids were always… They were always reminding me of something. There would be a great… If I was saying something incorrectly in spelling words, they'd say, that's pronounced… They wouldn't pay any attention to the way I'd pronounce it. So, sometimes I found them my better teachers really. [30:38] When I went to St. Laurence in Laramie, that was the first time where I was principal, and I was there a year before the principal was leaving. And I'm sure that I was being shaped to be her replacement, but I didn't know it at the time. JK: Oh, you didn't. [00:31:00] KMF: No. But it was very… JK: Did you go to Laramie first and then Helena, I mean… KMF: Yes. I was in Laramie first and then Helena. Yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 14 of 32 JK: Oh, ok. KMF: And Laramie was Wyoming. It's a very small city really. It had a university. That was the big thing. And we had a wonderful staff there. We had a junior high. Not too many places had junior highs at that time. But we didn't have a high school there. So, we had them come to the ninth grade instead of having to go into junior high and then move again. So, that was about the… you know, in Laramie. JK: How did you like administration as opposed to teaching? [00:31:45] KMF: I kind of glided into it easily, I think. I didn't make a big to-do about it, I don't think. I had so many good Sisters, I mean companions there that were really good assistants and helped in so many different ways that I'm sure they took the burden off the principalship. I don't remember it being stressful to be truthful. JK: Oh, good. How long had you taught before you became a principal? [00:32:11] KMF: Oh, probably 14 or… 10 or 15 years, I'm not sure. Around in there. JK: Ok. So, where else did you teach then? [00:32:19] KMF: Then I went to… from Laramie I went to Helena, and that's where the schools closed. JK: No, I mean where did you teach after Leadville? [00:32:28] KMF: Oh. I was out in California for a year, and I was in Leavenworth. I was out in California for a couple of years. JK: Where in California? [00:32:36] KMF: It was called Visitation School in Los Angeles. JK: Oh, in Los Angeles. KMF: And it was a very big school too. And I got changed from there because some Sister there had to be back here close by for something or another. And it was just a good experience for me. That's all. I can't remember much about it. And the kids were very nice, very good kids. And from there then I went to Helena. That's where I went. And I was only there in Helena for two years when that school closed. And it was one of our first schools closing. A lot have closed since. Well, many of them have closed since. JK: And why did it close? [00:33:11] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 15 of 32 KMF: It was the bishop's decision because a lot of the money was going into the Catholic schools system from the parish, and there were a lot of other students, a lot of other children not able to go and pay the tuition. So, he felt it was unfair to have a Catholic school going really and not having some good religious education programs for all of the children together because some families weren't able to pay the tuition. JK: I see. KMF: So, it was a hard decision at the time because not many schools were closing, but he was a very strong man. His name was Bishop Hunthausen. And he saw the handwriting on the wall and it was a very difficult thing for all the Sisters that were there because we were all without jobs. And that was the beginning of my other career which is the most important part of my life, I think, is the next career that I've gotten into. JK: Oh, good. Before we leave that when was it that that school closed? [00:34:18] KMF: Let me see. In '69, maybe '69 or around. It was maybe '68. I'm not sure. JK: Right. KMF: It was in the '60s, and there were nine of us teaching and there were nine of us without… You know when the schools closed we all wondered now where do we go. And so five, I think, of us stayed on to bridge the gap between the religious education program that we were going to work on and not having a school, to bridge the gap for the parents that had sent their kids to a Catholic school. So they would still see us and be familiar with us. And so then that was the beginning of pastoral ministry work in parishes. JK: I see. KMF: And then we began to work closer with the priests. And we became one big staff rather than the Sisters here and the priests there. JK: I see. And what did you do in your new position and where was it? [00:35:22] KMF: The next one you mean. JK: Your first position in pastoral care. KMF: Oh, my first there in Helena. I continued to work in pastoral ministry. JK: Pastoral ministry. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 16 of 32 KMF: I had marriage encounter groups, and I did some day retreat work for women. Then we of course had religious education for the children, but we did adult work too with adult classes. JK: Can you tell about each of those experiences? [00:35:52] KMF: No. I'm not sure if I have time, but let's see, the marriage encounter… JK: You've got time. KMF: Oh, I have lots of time. But I have a bigger story, I think, as I go on. My story gets… I have more to say about the last part of my story because I've spent longer in the last stage of my… I've spent longer in the ministry of AIDS. JK: Oh, ok. KMF: That was the biggest chunk of my… JK: Right. But we have plenty of time. KMF: But anyway… ok. I thought I could find a good excuse here of not having time, but that's not working. (Laughter) JK: If you want to pass onto the next one that's fine. [00:36:29] KMF: No, no, no. What was the question you asked? JK: I just asked… KMF: Oh, marriage… yes, yes, yes. JK: You had a few programs that you… KMF: Yes. Marriage encounter was one. JK: Marriage and…? KMF: Marriage encounter. JK: Oh, marriage encounter. Ok. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 17 of 32 KMF: It was a program and then you kept it going and married couples met and discussed their differences and their acceptance and whatever to make their marriage better. And that was quite an experience for me. JK: How so? [00:37:03] KMF: I wasn't ready for all of their discussions so to speak. JK: (Laughs) KMF: For all of their differences. And they were very talkative too. They were very outgoing people. And I think I might have had six couples if I'm not mistaken. But I do remember just one that just comes to mind. I said, "You know what? I think I have to leave." And it was a little sooner than I would. And they said, "Well, why are you leaving? The conversation is just getting started," or just getting fired up or whatever. And I said, "Yes, I'm leaving. Truly," I said, "I'm leaving because I'm so happy just to be going home to my single bed." (Laughter) KMF: Because it was all about their problems… well, I shouldn't say in bed, but anyway, it was that kind of a problem and so they all said, "Oh, chicken, chicken." (Laughter) JK: That's good. KMF: But they were fun groups to have, and the other one was a retreat, days of retreat I'd have for women. JK: And what did you discuss there? [00:38:28] KMF: There would be a topic. Maybe a topic about how do you feel about the church today. It would be a topic like that. It would be support for them in aftermath because they might continue meeting on a monthly basis or something like that. And there might be women that belonged to prayer groups, 'cause I did some prayer group work too for women mostly. I think I might have been on the women kick at that time. JK: It was the very beginning of the women's movement. KMF: Yes, it was. JK: Did that have anything to bear? [00:39:05] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 18 of 32 KMF: A little bit. It did probably. JK: How so? [00:39:08] KMF: 'Cause I remember I stayed on in summertime giving retreats. We had a big convent and it was a mansion-y convent called 600 Harrison. And it had big rooms and gave itself very well to groups for retreat. So, I would always have day retreats there for women. JK: Did you discuss any women's issues? [00:39:34] KMF: Oh, yeah, very much so. Yes. You know it was mostly women's issues, you know, about leadership and how we could become more prevalent in parishes and support each other by small groups too. JK: You started the pastoral ministry in Helena, but then after six years you moved to the Blackfeet Indian Reservation in Browning, Montana. [00:40:06] KMF: That's right. JK: How did you like working on the Indian reservation? KMF: Oh, I loved it. JK: And what did you run into? [00:40:13] JK: There was one Sister up there. The reason I moved up there was there was one Sister… There were two Sisters working there, and they had just been there a year. That was their first endeavor. And one of them was leaving at the end of the year. She either didn't like it or she was moving to another area. And so the one Sister… There weren't too many others volunteering to go up there. I was still in Montana and so it was up farther in the state and so I thought about it. That would be a wonderful… I always liked adventure and I'm thinking that it was adventure that probably got me to the community to begin with, the adventure of doing different things. And so I thought, I don't know, I never worked with the Native Americans but I bet I could manage that and I really have had… What? It's not the prejudice I want to say. I've never had that much difference in discrimination. You know I remembered an incident when we had the grade school in Helena. I got a call—this is going back to grade school. I got a call one time from somebody from Washington who was moving to Helena, Montana, and he wanted to know something about the Catholic school. And he was going to come a week ahead of his family just to stake things out. And he wanted to �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 19 of 32 know if he could come and look at the school because he didn't know for sure whether he'd send his kids there or not. So, I said, "Sure, give me a call when you come and I'll show you around." So, he did. He came and he gave me a call and I showed him around the school. And as we were walking around the school he said to me, "Do you have any African American people?" And I thought "African American people." I said, "No, no we don't." We were still walking around. And then we passed a classroom, and there was a teacher who had good, loud voice and she was teaching, and he looked in and he said, "Oh, but you do have African American teachers." And I looked in and I said, "Oh, yes. Mary Alice." So, it dawned on me. Now, Mary Alice had been there when I went to Helena and she was… her husband was the assistant coach at Carroll College, I think. They were a stable family. I never thought of her as being African American because she was there when I went there and she was just stable. And then I remembered all her kids were in school. You know, she has five or six kids, and they were all in different classes. I said, "Oh, yes, Mary Alice." And then I said, "We do have her children here too." So, it was like… You know, he never sent his kids to our school. JK: No, really? [00:43:08] KMF: No. So, that's way back there too. The side of the story is that I would have never seen the difference. So, going up to Browning to the Indian, Blackfeet Indian, I didn't think I would have any difficulty with their culture if they didn't have any difficulty with mine. JK: Right. KMF: That kind of thing. So, because of the vacancy I volunteered to go up there because I felt that I had done enough in Helena and that somebody else could… some lay people now could replace me. So, I joined that Sister for two years, three years up there, and she left and then another Sister came and joined. And we were there six years and we promoted a lot of leadership among them. And the kind of missionary work that was beginning in the church and that we did at that time was not the same as the old missionary work of going to a country and saying this is what it means to be a Catholic. But you take their culture and you work with and say, "You are still African American, and that's the most important aspect. Here's how you can bring in the Catholic culture to it. You don't change your culture. You bring the Catholic faith into it and work it from your culture, and that was the whole completely opposite of missionary work. Missionary work in the past and in the beginning when missionaries went to Africa people had to become like them in schools and boarding schools, and all that the kids were taught white. White is the thing. But that's not… JK: And the Indian reservations at that time, how are the students taught? [00:44:58] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 20 of 32 KMF: At that time there were some… Now in Browning they had no grade schools, no schools. They would have vacation schools which meant Sisters would go in for two or three weeks during the summer and prepare them for sacraments but it was not a longtime term thing. So, anyway, that was my reason for going, for developing leadership among them themselves so that they could become the leaders of their own culture from the Catholic point of view. And so I learned their culture and fit it into their culture. JK: Oh, I see. KMF: Yes. And I think that being Irish did help me in that area. JK: Did it? [00:45:46] KMF: It did, yes. I have a funny story to tell that I sometimes tell the Sisters about. I would try to learn their, what do I want to say, their characteristics, their beadwork and their handiwork, and I would try to learn things that would be important for me after I left. And, anyway, we were sitting around and we were having beadwork. Now, I would meet with a group of them every Wednesday, I think, and it was a chat group and beadwork, but they do a lot of other things including a little bit of gossip, you know, periodic. So, one of them said to the group one Wednesday, "Oh, I have to go to Missoula."Are you familiar with Montana? JK: Somewhat. Yes. My daaughter lives in Billings. KMF: "I have to go to Missoula next weekend for a wedding." And they all said, "Oh, poor Wilma." They were all Indian, Native Americans around me. And I didn't know for sure what the wedding was about. But the next Wednesday someone said, "Wilma, how did the wedding go? How did the wedding go?" And she said, "Ah, you know those white people." That's us. "You know those white people." So, I'm the only white person around so I said, "Wilma, I'm here, you know. I'm here." And she said, "Oh, no. You're not white. You're Irish." JK: (Laughs) KMF: So, I said, "Ah, good, good, good, good. I'm saved." So, I felt like maybe that interaction… I mean… I loved being on the Indian reservation. I loved it, and I loved the interaction with the people. And when I was leaving, both the other Sister and myself, we wanted to leave because we felt that as long as we stayed there they wouldn't do what we had trained them to do, because they'd say, "Oh, the Sisters can do it. The Sisters would do that. They'd know how to do it better than we do." So, we both decided to leave at the same time. And then we both naturally… JK: Did you ever check back and see that they followed through? [00:47:57] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 21 of 32 KMF: Oh, yes. Oh many times, many times. JK: Did you? KMF: Many times, yes. I still hear from some of them. JK: What was the result? [00:48:02] KMF: Well, now we have Sisters up there too. We have a Sister teaching grade school up there. JK: Oh, you do. KMF: Yes. And then there was another Sister who followed a few years later than that, and she was there for 30 years, I think, or 20. Yes, yes. I feel like they got a good… You know that they were used to doing their own thing kind of thing which is the best thing for them to do. JK: Were there any challenges at all dealing with…? [00:48:26] KMF: Oh, there were lots of challenges. Yes, there were lots of challenges of... JK: …different cultures? KMF: Yes. We had another very successful ministry for men that really changed a lot of the men there. Men didn't take much responsibility about their faith or anything. And there was… I don't know if you ever heard of a Cursillo, but there was a men's Cursillo, and I asked about seven or eight of them if they wouldn't mind making that Cursillo. It was a weekend. There was a lot of dedication, and they came back just full of the spirit, full of life and faith. It was a renewal for them. And so to this day I do think that they go to other places performing and giving lectures on that Cursillo, on being with the Lord and taking responsibility of your family for the Lord. And it was the first time in a way they seemed to be awakened to that kind of a discovery. So, it was a very successful… And I know that long after we left they were traveling to other reservations and they were traveling to other places to put on the Cursillo. Cursillo —did you hear of it? It was a very successful movement within the church in the '70s or '80s. JK: Would you say it again please? [00:49:51] KMF: Cursillo, C-U-R-S-I-L-L-O, Cursillo, I think. JK: Ok. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 22 of 32 KMF: I'm sure there are Sisters who would have gone through it here many times. But it's a wonderful lay thing. And then we would also attend a Tekakwitha Conference. Tekakwitha is the saint, the Native American saint. She was canonized, and all the Native American tribes from around would meet once a year some place, and so we would raise money and send as many as we could to that conference. And that was also a great revival for them, because they were meeting with other Christians who were active in their churches, other tribes. It would be a good weekend, long weekend where they would revive their own culture within themselves. JK: And you wrote an Indian family prayer book. KMF: Oh, yes, I did. I did that… JK: Why did you do that? [00:51:02] KMF: I did that because I wanted their artwork. I wanted them to see their own artwork around common prayers, so that they'd recognize… JK: So, you incorporated… KMF: The prayer wasn't really Indian as much as the artwork. JK: Oh. It was from the reservation. [00:51:23] KMF: Yes. And they would recognize the artwork and then they would pick up the book and they'd say, "Ah, we know these prayers. They are our Father." It wasn't prayers that they weren't used to. JK: Ok. KMF: I used ordinary prayer with it, I think. I can't remember. It was so long ago, but I do remember definitely their artwork, their Native American artwork. JK: That must have been very pretty. KMF: Yes. JK: And you moved from Montana to a Native Alaskan ministry. KMF: Yes. JK: With the Archdiocese of Anchorage. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 23 of 32 KMF: Right. JK: But did you stay in Anchorage? [00:52:01] KMF: I did. I stayed in Anchorage, but I used to go out to the bush area. JK: Oh, did you? KMF: And my reason, I was asked by the community to go up to Alaska. We had a Sister up there by herself, and she was a midwife and she lived with… Sisters are few in Alaska and few meaning they are from different communities, maybe one or two or three. And we were all one when we were up there because we needed each other. So, she was living with six or seven other Sisters from other communities. So, when I went up to join her we got a little apartment for the two of us because there wasn't room for me in the bigger one. But we had a great camaraderie with all the other Sisters there. That was the biggest boost to me, to get to know so many other different religious communities and meet each other. We needed each other because we were so far away from all of our own communities. JK: Right. KMF: And we had lots of fun and lots of good community. And so much so that when we would be doing… you know, where we all met in parishes, we were working, we were meeting together the Sisters would all try to sit at the same table so we'd have fun and visit. And the bishop would come along and he'd say, "You Sisters are supposed to all spread out among the people. (Laughter) KMF: So, I worked with the Eskimos and the Indians there. I kept my work to Native Americans. JK: Oh, you did. [00:53:32] KMF: And the Eskimos are the natives. They are two completely different… Eskimo. I always felt that they were all the same. No. The Eskimo has a heritage of their own and the Athabascan Indians were the other famous Indians who are up there. And the Eskimos, they were the fish herd. They would catch the big salmon and do that kind of stuff. And the Athabascans were bead workers. JK: Oh, really. Ok. KMF: Beautiful beadwork. But I worked with the two and it was called Native Alaskan. And so when you referred to Native Alaskans you were referring to Eskimos and the Indians and all the �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 24 of 32 other different tribes. But there are so many white people up there now the Native Alaskans are fewer. JK: And where did you have to go? [00:54:27] KMF: Anchorage. I worked out of Anchorage and a lot of the native… from the different islands, not islands—what do they call it? —bases (phonetic) from around Alaska, all the different, small places in Alaska, they would come in for some reason, and maybe many of them came to stay in Anchorage. And so to keep their culture again and to… my job there was developing native leaders, Catholic leaders. JK: So, an extension of your Montana experience. [00:55:05] KMF: Right. And also it was important for them to be able to live their native culture in Anchorage because Anchorage was white as well. So, they would put on native Masses, for instance, and they would have their own culture, and then other native people would want to come and see their culture, you know. So, it was saying Alaska belongs to the natives. This is who Alaska is in a way, 'cause that's who they were. So, all the different areas that… There are so many little, different sections that different ones come from. They're all different tribes and all different languages. So, it's like a little country to itself—Alaska. But it was a wonderful experience for me. And the reason I left… I was there for seven years and I had committed seven years to that program. And so the community, I think, knew that my seven years were coming to a close and so they were probably thinking, oh, let's see. What can we have her do? So, I got a call one time that said would you come back to the lower 48—that's us down here— and do this program for the candidates, formation director? And that was new candidates, first year candidates. So, I did that for a year, and it was only two and I think two lasted and went onto the next realm of it and then they went onto to the next. And then my second year was beginning. I had only one, and she left in February. But I then got into my most, do I want to say, the area that I got the most out of myself as well—the AIDS work. JK: And when did you enter the AIDS work? Or when did you begin the AIDS work? [00:57:12] KMF: It was in, let me see, '86 or '87. JK: Oh, that early. KMF: Yes. '87 or '88. JK: Oh that must have been… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 25 of 32 KMF: And the reason I got into it was actually by coincidence because after that candidate left I had no options for much jobs because it was February, and we needed to have a job and we needed to be bringing in money here in the community at that time. I was told that. And so, I thought, well, let's see now and I can look… So, I called lots of parishes to see if they needed any… and February's not an easy time to find a job. JK: Right. [00:57:53] KMF: But one of the candidates that had—I think she died since—but she had some connection with AIDS, or with AIDS, and she used to attend something, an AIDS support group or something. I wasn't sure I knew what it was all about. But she used to mention it to me about AIDS. And so I thought I'm going to check out that AIDS business. It was just beginning. I knew nothing about it and knew everybody was afraid of it. But I checked it out and I heard at the right time that there was a training. And I'm thinking, well, my gosh, this just fits right in. I'll do the training and it'll give me a chance to find out more about it. So, I did the training. It was a week's training, very intense, and at the end of it I went down to Good Samaritan. It was just beginning to… It was an organization for AIDS, daily organization not a live over or whatever. JK: And this was in Kansas City. [00:58:56] KMF: Kansas City, Missouri. And so I went there and I did the training, and then I went down to Good Samaritan after the training, and it was just beginning and there were only two people on the staff, maybe three, and the one that interviewed me, she said, "Now, what would you like to do?" And I said, "Well, the only thing I'm really qualified," I said, "is for something in the spiritual line, and I don't even know enough about how I would fit in or whatever, but that would be my forte," I said. And she said, "We never have any calls for that. We just never hear about that." They didn't because they were so caught up in the disease itself. There were people dying. And it was just the beginning of AIDS. It was the first or second year of the AIDS epidemic in Kansas City. And so I said, "Well, you know what, that would be my first preference," I said, "and I don't know that I'd be useful in any other area." And the areas that they would want would be transportation, taking them around from place to place, but I knew I couldn't do that. And so I said, "Well, you know what, I'll have to try again," or something I said. "I'd try some place else."And she said, "No, just a minute. Just a minute. You know," she said, "we have had about 15 clients come here to Good Samaritan." And she said, "Would you mind just calling them maybe and asking them if their service was complete or if they need anything else and just to see where they are with the disease?" �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 26 of 32 So, I thought I could do that but I don't know any answers for their questions. But I decided I'd take that anyway. So, I called and my experience was that the person would say, "You're who? Who did you say you were?" And, you know, Sister Kevin Marie. It's sort of a, "Kevin Marie?" Now, some of these wouldn't be Catholic. Some of them would, but you could tell those that weren't. And they said, "Who are you working for?" And I explained, and I made the training. I'm a Sister of Charity and I'm volunteering, and I'd explain who I was. And then after a bit they'd say, "Oh, would you ever mind calling my mom and telling her that you called me?" And I thought, "Sure. Give me your mom's name." And so that would be his… Then another would say, "Now, tell me again who you are." And so I went through… you know I explained who I was. But if they were Catholic they knew right away, Sister Kevin, and they'd say, "What are you doing here?" because they would get the shaft from a lot of people already. And so I would explain to them that I was trying to work at Good Samaritan and I was just beginning, and then they would say, again, it was connect with my family. Tell them who you are and tell them that you are in my life. It's like saying if you are in my life I'm ok. So, it was my calling card to say this is where you belong. If you don't do anything else but call this is where you belong, because they were asking for spiritual help and for support. I found the support needed badly. JK: Right. [01:02:37] KMF: And so that's why I said after I finished… I didn't do it all the first day because it probably took a week to go through… But that's what I was getting. And then I was getting requests like… because many of them already had a partner die of AIDS, and no one wanted to bury the partner, no church wanted to—no one. So, they would say would you do my memorial for me if I die. I mean they were dying right and left at that time. And so that's how… Then I said I belong here. So, I came back and said… oh, I think I said to her, or did I tell you the part where I said, "I can only do a spiritual thing and she said we don't have any… So, when I came back with the results of my calling I said, "They're all asking for something different, for some spiritual thing, some need." And so, when she heard my story then they were putting out a new pamphlet, a new format, and so there my name was saying spiritual support. And that was how I got into it. JK: That's wonderful. [01:03:44] KMF: So, it was my greatest, my most rewarding type of work. JK: It must have been so difficult. But maybe it wasn't because you were… [01:03:56] KMF: It was difficult in a sense that I felt so good among them because I felt so accepted among them that I was somebody that represented the church to them. I represented their parents to them. I represented so many people that had rejected them. So, they thought, well, here's this one �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 27 of 32 person. She's in my life. I must be ok if she sticks with me, because at that time it was devastating for them. Devastating. JK: Yes. KMF: So, I lasted there for almost 20 years. JK: Twenty years. KMF: Twenty. I was on my twentieth. JK: So, you lasted until the cure came in. [01:04:46] KMF: Right. And until people stopped dying actually. They're not dying now at all of AIDS, and they can get a long-term… If they're on medication… And I know many of them that are still living, and they live as long as anyone else because medication has so improved. But it was devastating because we would have 30 to 40 a month. And this is why I brought this along to show you. This is only a portion of them, but I kept a picture of these. JK: Oh, really. KMF: And that's just a portion of them. JK: Oh, my gosh. KMF: And each one of those has a story. JK: Oh, I'm sure they did. That's really nice. [01:05:46] KMF: But these are what I would do for actually the memorial if I could, if I had time. I didn't do it for everyone. But I called it "Blow gentle breeze. Carry memories of our loved ones." And then I would have a little bit about each person. This would be the first one, Norbert, that I had. JK: Oh, really. KMF: Do I have time to read it to you? JK: I'm sorry? KMF: Do I have time to read it to you? JK: Yes. [01:06:24] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 28 of 32 KMF: Ok. "In memory of Norbert. [And this was '89.] Norbert, frail in limb and body but strong in spirit. My fragility from fear and experience was made strong by Norbert's welcoming spirit. Baptismal waters bonded us spiritually. And a large rosary draped over his bed made our conversation flow with ease. Norbert recalled the nuns who taught him, and I recalled the Norberts that I taught. Was it this connection that brought a glint to Norbert's eye? I will never know. Our encounter seemed so fleeting. In so short a time an empty bed announced his resurrection and fleshed angels told the story of his peaceful dying. I will never know for sure about that glint. I only know I longed to take him in my arms and speak pietà to a world of AIDS." This is the picture of the pietà. So, as kind of a grieving sometime after, I composed a verse in their memory. JK: I'm sure that helped. [01:07:53] KMF: It did. Yes. And I have it as a memory, you know. JK: Right. KMF: This man was Jewish, and I was gone when he died and I was very sad. But we had great discussions even. "I sat stunned as I saw your obituary. I read it over and over again convincing myself it wasn't you, Michael, my friend. But denial gave way to acceptance and my heart bore a great pain, pain for the loss of a good friend, pain that I was not with you in your final exodus. I was aware that your life was often battered by the winds of depression and finding shelter in the midst of the storm was difficult for you. In contrast there were days when peace dwelt in your heart, the bright moments when your Jewish belief carried you through the Red Sea of pain. I will remember our long conversations intertwining the best of both of our faiths both respecting and believing in the goodness of the other. And when you sent me your email on June, 2001 you ended with the following manner. Now I will repeat it in your memory." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 29 of 32 And he has something in Jewish that I don't know but it's like "May the Lord always be with you and bless you," but he said it in Jewish. JK: Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. [01:09:31] KMF: Yes. Alex was a very funny guy. JK: You know I wonder if the archives could make a copy of that. KMF: Oh, I'm sure they could, yes, because I have several copies that I've given people. JK: Oh, do you? [01:09:47] KMF: Yes. Not several left but it might well be in the archives already. JK: Oh, ok. But let's check, because it should be. KMF: Yes. And let's see now if there's anything else. JK: Well, copies of that also. KMF: I'll put that in the archives too, I think. These are all Alaskan pictures of different Sisters that were there, you know, in the time. JK: Oh, yes. KMF: We're having a good time. JK: Yes, right. Well, that's good. KMF: So, let's see, was there anything else? JK: So, thank you for sharing them. [01:10:37] KMF: Oh, I guess maybe the last few questions I… What makes the SCL community work? Can I do that? JK: Yes. If you met your younger self and she was debating whether or not to join the SCLs what would tell her? [01:10:51] KMF: I would say, yes, yes, yes, do, do, do. JK: (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 30 of 32 KMF: Go and enjoy it. Enjoy it and say give it all you've go. And use your natural gifts to the hilt. JK: Great. Yes. [01:11:08] KMF: I think for me, like for instance, working with AIDS I found that they gave me more myself than I gave them, and they accepted my naturalness. They accepted my gifts, and they turned them into something that I didn't even think of them as gifts. Like when they would introduce me to their parents or something, they would say, "Sister Kevin is with us." Or like one fellow said, "She was the last one I saw before I went into surgery and the first one I saw when I came out." Well, what would you expect that I sat there in the (inaudible)? I didn't. I went home and had an eight-hour sleep, you know. And when he saw me the next day it was probably 11 o'clock. JK: (Laughs) KMF: But they would say that to their parents and they would make you believe… And I'd let it go, you know. I would let it go. I don't know if you know Catholic statements or not, but one day I went into a hospital, and I went to say goodbye to the young guy because he was going home. And when I got there his friend was leaning over him, and when I knocked on the door the friend was so delighted to see me. He said, "Come in, come in." And he was really anxious. And he said, "I think he's dying. He's dying." And I said, "Willy (phonetic) dying, oh, my God." And I was so taken at the moment that I put my hand under him and I said what we would say, and I don't know if you're familiar with grace before meals? I said, "Bless us, oh Lord, in these your gifts." And I said the grace before meals, what I would say, which wouldn't be said when a person is dying. You know, it would be before a meal. And the other guy that was there with him… Willy died right then and there. Now, he was very sick but he was also well enough to go home, but he wouldn't have long maybe to stay at home. I don't know. But when Michael was explaining this to different… he said, "Willy is in Heaven. Willy is in Heaven, because Sister Kevin came in and gave him the Last Rites." I said, "Oh, no, no." I didn't even contradict him that I didn't give him the Last Rites. But they always put you away on a pedestal and you let them be, you let it be because, well, if they thought so that's ok. So, a long time after that, sometime after that when I heard him saying it in a big crowd, I said, "You know, Michael, if there's a bishop ever around don't say that because I'd be in big trouble." (Laughter) [01:13:52] But they always gave me more than I ever deserved from them. They thought that I could do anything for them. And I think it was I did fulfill a purpose for them because the church was not �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 31 of 32 on their side. Their parents were not on their side, at the very beginning especially. Some parents would come the last few days of dying and then they would want to have—what do you call that?—oxygen or not oxygen but… Well, oxygen or something that would keep them longer alive. Oh, where were they when he needed them? But they wanted… You know the last minute it was like, oh, (inaudible). And they would ignore the partner that was with them taking care of them for 30 years, or 40 years, so it was really hard on them. They had a whole lot to put up with. And so my last remark is… I don't have it with me naturally but I have… My shroud is going to be three big banners that I made in their memory. And their names are on it, and I had it on display during AIDS week or something. JK: Oh, did you? [01:15:12] KMF: I'd make one for each new session, and I'm going to have that as my shroud when I die. So, I know I'll have to go straight to Heaven with that crowd around me with their names. JK: Oh, right, yes. KMF: I said I'd have to go straight to Heaven with that crowd around me with all their names. And I know they're in Heaven because they suffered so much and were rejected so much. But AIDS has come a long way, even in the reputation of AIDS. People… JK: Yes it has. KMF: People remember. Ok, let's see if there's anything else. The future of the SCLs. JK: Yes, what's the future? [01:15:55] KMF: I think that the future of the SCLs will diminish, but no organization can last as long as we have lasted. We have to remember we have been going for 150 or 160 years now. And to leave that much history, what other organization, what other society has been able to do that length of work? And so, it's only history. Another new… something new will develop from that. And it will move where we started. JK: That's a good way of looking at it. [01:16:33] KMF: Right. It's a matter of history, I think. JK: Right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Kevin Marie Flynn Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 22, 2017 Page 32 of 32 KMF: It's not a matter of diminishing. And the other thing is there are a lot of lay people who are doing a lot of the work that the Sisters used to do, and that's another whole new element which is a very positive element. JK: Very. KMF: That there are a lot of lay people. Ok. JK: Thank you so much, Sister Kevin. KMF: Well, you're very welcome. JK: That was wonderful. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Flynn, S. Kevin Marie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:17:19 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flynn, S. Kevin Marie, Oral History, 6/27/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Ireland; Teaching; Native Americans; AIDS Ministry; Counseling Description An account of the resource Sister begins by describing her childhood in Ireland and the importance of faith in her family?s daily life. She talks about learning of the SCLs through an older brother, a priest already working in the States. She speaks of the novitiate fondly, recalling the sense of community and how these relationships eased the culture shock of moving from Ireland. Her mission work begins in education; she describes learning to be a teacher and working in many different places, eventually becoming an administrator. The closing of her school in Helena became the catalyst for change, and she shifted her focus to pastoral ministry. She describes working with married couples and women, followed by time spent on a Native American reservation. She finally describes working with the Good Samaritan Project in Kansas City. She discovered a need for spiritual support among the organizations patients. A position was created for her, and she spent many years offering this support to those afflicted with AIDS in the Kansas City area. Sister consistently talks about how the people she encountered in her mission work taught her valuable lessons and strengthened her own spirituality. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flynn, S. Kevin Marie; Kennamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Flynn, S. Kevin Marie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/19aae66e0adfe688080b1e58f215ed5c.jpg 9b672552a3c5d30058583c0fc6fcd0dc https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c3547a10359d990c7c243c9b346826ee.MP3 8b0ed527267d750672a4d06cdc5d1e95 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1cb7244876df1db31999c2f6d19db6cf.pdf 6bc9ff6a84a8084b48b0043f15ba2ab4 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Marie Russo, SC Sister Marie Devota Gately, SC January 28, 1996 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 19, 2020 Sr. Marie: It’s 3:15 p.m., Saint Anne Villa in Sister's room 204, regarding Sr. Marie Devota while she was living in the Caritas community, a house of retirement for the sisters in [Jersey City, New Jersey]. Sr. Marie: You lived at Caritas in Jersey City from 1982 to 1995. Sr. Devota, would you like tell us about some of the volunteer work that you did during this time? Sr. Devota: Well, during my time there, I was involved quite a bit of volunteer work My first thought when I went there in 1982 was to give something that I could be of help to other people. So I accompanied one of the sisters from Caritas over to the Visiting Homemakers Service because she was [seeking] help for her brother. And while I was there it occurred to me that possibly they would need some volunteer work done and they were delighted. So that was the beginning of my work with the Visiting Homemakers Service. I used to go there every week for a few hours. And I would call people who previously had homemakers, just to find out how they were doing, if they needed some more help and just in what way could homemaker service be of more assistance to them. It was really very interesting work and very gratifying work, too. After I was there for a few months and enjoying the work very much, I received a call from the executive's office and asking me if I would serve on a new council that they were forming, a services advisory council of Hudson County. And I was asked if I would serve on this advisory council. I was amused at first. I remember I was telling [Sister Jo Ann Bromley] about it. She was our administrator at Caritas and we both had a good laugh about it, not thinking anything would come of it. I finally was contacted and found out that it was the executive director of homemaker services who had submitted my name to this council. Well, that was the beginning of many things. It was really very interesting work. There were about 20 on this advisory council. And actually our chief work was trying to determine who were the most eligible clients for the grants that were available. First they began on a federal basis. Then they went down from the federal to state, then to county. And we [unintelligible] who were the people in the county who are the most deserving of the, but it really went into millions to receive these grants. Our job was to discuss what was the use of the grant. Why is it this particular organization applied for the grant in the first place, what use they had for the money, and what use did it seem that they were going to make of the money? And we just got that very interesting discussion about all of these groups. And I was oftentimes felt that I could give a very unbiased opinion as to whether I felt which organization would be more deserving and make more use of the grants. Unfortunately, there were politics that entered into all these things, too. And they all felt that I was not inclined to be as suggesting any information from a political point of view. So I did the �best I could to help those that I really felt, you did ask me as a Sister of Charity, how I felt that I could be of use. And I really felt as a Sister of Charity, they appreciated my contributions and my suggestions and my advice. But they're all just very wonderful people in this group and the advisory council. They did excellent work and were very concerned about the people whom they were serving. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, weren't you also involved in an advisory council for transportation for the elderly and handicapped from 1984 to 1994? Sr. Devota: Yes. You see one of my problems when I got to Jersey City was to find out how I could get transportation when I needed it. I had to get to the Eye Institute in Newark, for instance, and had various places that I had to go to and transportation was a little bit of a problem. We only had the one car. And so I began calling the county offices to find out if they didn't provide any kind of transportation to take care of handicapped people. Before I knew it, I had a call from the county executives in the Office of the Handicapped, asking me if I would be willing to serve on a citizens’ committee who would determine just in what way they could serve the elderly and the handicapped with regard to transportation. That, too, became interesting. We became involved in deciding on what kind of vans they needed to provide for all the people. And there were many things entering into that. What the qualifications had to be for the drivers even. And it was really, it turned out to be something very interesting. I always used to feel that while they were talking about vans for transportation, sometimes I felt that actually they didn't need vans. Sometimes just an individual or two individuals needed transportation to get to their college classes. And I couldn't see the need of having a van transporting one or two people. I was always arguing that it would be certainly more economical and more comfortable for the people using, needing the transportation to sit in just an ordinary car. Well, at first my request really wasn't heeded very much. But after a while, they began to see that this was more economical and it would certainly contribute to the comfort of the individuals who needed the transportation. And we had to go and vans would be purchased. We had to go and inspect the vans and see how many wheelchairs could fit in. Oh, there was so much involved in this, but it was interesting, it was good. Sr. Marie: What about there was another committee, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. You called it SCILS which you started working on in 1987 until 1994. How did you get involved in this and how was this sort of ministry? Sr. Devota: Well you see, after I had been going to the homemakers volunteer service, doing my volunteer work at the Visiting Homemakers Service, I began to feel that it was getting a little bit difficult for me to walk over to the office where I did my work. And they were concerned too about my crossing the streets. So they were just about to begin the SCILS program, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. And at that time I was asked that, instead of coming over to the office to do the work, would I please just serve on this committee where we could make �decisions as to how people could live independently and not have to come out to work. And just what way could we be of help in suggesting means to give aid to the elderly people? I really found this group to be particularly interesting. We became involved not so much with the elderly people but we became very involved with the volunteers. Those who would go and assist the elderly. The people would go in and would help them with their shopping and people who would transit, provide transportation for them. Sometimes they would just go to visit them. And a couple of times a year, or two or three times a year in fact, we would have group dinners together with these volunteer people, who would explain to us what they were doing and how much they enjoyed doing volunteer work for others. It's amazing how many people are really interested in giving assistance to othesr and the pleasure they get out of it. I think if everybody were aware of the pleasure you can get out of giving to others, I think more people would be wanting to volunteer their services. Sr. Marie: From 1984 to 1991, Sister Devota, you were involved in a committee an archdiocesan committee, the foster grandparents program. Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: Could you tell something about that? Sr. Devota: That again was an advisory council. I never knew I could ever be on so many advisory councils at one time. But that again was an advisory council and the Director of the Catholic Community Services in Jersey City asked me if I would serve on that. We would meet once a month, quite regularly. And we would just see in what way could people who would like to act as foster grandparents really help these children. In fact, when I was first invited to be on the advisory council I said, "Oh, no.” I thought I was expected to work with the little children myself and in no way did I feel prepared to do this at my age. However, that wasn't it, we were just on the advisory council for it. And the grandparents, we used to have a luncheon once or twice a year when they would tell us their experiences and the joy they received from being foster grandparents and acting as foster grandparents for these little children. The elderly people themselves got so much happiness out of it because they said, "Oh, it was so good to see the little children." They'd come in and they just run up to them, throw their arms around them. And the elderly people got more out of it than you could ever even imagine. So again I say, giving yourself to others is really very, very rewarding. You get more reward, I think we got more reward out of the things we do for other people than they actually get out of it, too. Sr. Marie: Sister Devota, would you tell us a little bit more about another ministry that you engaged in, volunteer work when you were in Caritas? �Sr. Devota: Well, one of the things I did when I began, when I first went to Caritas, was to visit the jail, the Hudson County jail. It wasn't too far away from us, it was about, I would say about the equivalent of about three blocks away from us. And I used to go there, spend most of every Friday morning. I would visit the women in the jail. It was mostly a male institution, but the women were very much in the minority. Actually, when I began my work there, we only had about 40 or 50 women. But by the time I finished and the jail moved about ten years later, it was the population of the women was up to a hundred. And it was interesting going there. I think what those women needed more than anything else was someone to listen to them. So I always gave them a willing ear and occasionally they would ask me for advice on what to do. And they really needed it. We used to read. I did provide copies of the New Testament for them and any time I had little scriptural quotations or leaflets, I always gave them rosary beads. They were just so happy to get any of these things. And each time I would go in, they would show me that they had them. I had to teach them actually how to say the Hail Mary and the Our Father. Some of them, of course, didn't even know that. They weren't all Catholics, but even whether they were Catholic or not, very often they came to me. The conditions in the jail were really sad. It used to bother me very much. Sr. Marie: Yeah? Sr. Devota: Yes, because I mean, they had become so overcrowded and actually there was one big room and they slept in bunk beds. They were just one above the other. And there were about seven little cells. There would be about 14 women in one of these big rooms. And they'd have to jump down from the top bunk and that's the way they slept. And they'd see me they would really, it was amazing how so many of them would come over to talk to me. And some of them, you'd find out that they had several children, all by different husbands. And I used to try to talk sense to them, giving their lives to these men, just letting them, helping them satisfy their own sexual desires. And I said, "Who is to pay for?" I said, "Do they help you after the child is born?" Of course not. And I would question them sometimes, I'd find out someone had five and six children, each one by a different father. This was really sad. And I tried to help them to look into the future and see the damage they were doing to themselves and to the children. And they liked me for it, believe it or not. Sr. Marie: They didn't mind? Sr. Devota: No. And I did teach them the Hail Mary and the Our Father, I think I said that before. And helped them to know what the Rosary was all about because there was quite a large Muslim population of women in the jail. And they used to encourage the women to go to them whenever a Muslim leader would go to them. And apparently they had appealing things to say, because a couple of the women went over to the Muslims and thought it was really great. But I don't feel �that the women got enough spiritual help there or enough of any kind of help, to tell you the truth. The men used to have women coming in, tutoring them and helping them prepare for their GEDs. No one came to tutor the women. I don't know why. And the men used to have Masses occasionally, but the women weren't invited because they said the reason why the women weren't invited, because it would be too much of a distraction for the men, having women at the Mass with them. So the chaplain felt that it was better not to have them. But occasionally a priest would come and talk with them too. And another thing that we did sometimes, there was a long time ago and they used to have the privilege of crocheting and knitting. However, apparently it was abused because that was taken away from them. But sometimes when a girl would be expecting a baby, she'd say to me how much she wished she could make a little baby blanket – that she knew how to crochet or knit – or make little booties or a little sweater for the baby. So I would have to go to one of the authorities in the jail and get permission to get yarn for her and get all the knitting needles or the crochet hooks or whatever she would need and get permission for her to do some crocheting. This had to be done under a certain amount of supervision, but they were really so grateful for this opportunity they would have to actually do some crocheting or knitting for the baby that was coming. I could understand why it was a dangerous thing because anything with a point on is dangerous to put in the hands of one of the inmates. But we used to read scripture too. We provided, I got them through the jail, copies of the New Testament. And sometimes we'd read a few passages out of it. A passage I would think would appeal to them and we'd discuss it. But I found it very satisfying. Sr. Marie: I was just thinking of Saint Vincent de Paul with the galley slaves, the way he worked with them. It reminds me of what something that he would do. Sr. Devota: Yes. It's really very interesting. I would have stayed there. Finally, I think it was in 1981 the jail moved. Well, they had been really working on it and trying to improve conditions there, but then they moved to, I think it was someplace in South Kearny. Yeah, but it's not there. I think there's just an empty lot there now. And they were going to make it parking lot out of it or something. Sr. Marie: I didn't even notice that. Sr. Devota: But I had wanted very often to get someone to drive me to the jail after they moved. But somehow or other that never materialized. But I think the conditions there were better than what they had left. I didn't go away from the jail, the jail went away from me. At the end of it, they really liked, when I would come over, I didn't go inside the cell, but they would come. A group of them would come over to the gate to me. And of course there were different parts that I would go into it, go into different rooms. �I'd be able to talk right with them there in the individual rooms. But this one room had all those bunk beds in it. Other places had the bunk beds, too, but they weren't fenced in, the way some of them, at the gate. Sr. Marie: And were you by yourself when you went into those other rooms? Sr. Devota: Oh yes, but the guard didn't like me to go right inside the cell, unless there was somebody present there. They kind of fear of that. But I never had any problems with the women. They were always very nice. The Lord always takes care of us. Sr. Marie: Yeah, it was like you had your guardian angel protecting you or something. Sr. Devota: I got friendly with all the authorities in the jail, too. Sr. Marie: Did you really? Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: You were influencing systems there too. Besides your work in the councils, you were working for the good of the women there by knowing the officials themselves. Sr. Devota: Oh, yes. Well, of course I had been into counseling before I retired. In fact, I was in counseling quite a few years. But then I made use of the counseling again in the parish, in [Saint Joseph School in Jersey City]. Sr. Marie: Oh, would you tell us about that, what did you do in the school? Sr. Devota: What I did, the principal, Sister Joan McKee, would give me a list of names of some of the students, all in different grades. And I would go over to the school once a week and meet these children on an individual basis. And we would just discuss whatever their problems were or whatever they needed. And some actually range from kindergarten up to the eighth grade. �So, that was a good experience. But there was such a different level, the whole range. I had just maybe a couple from, not from every grade of course, but I had quite a few who came to me at about a half hour intervals or whatever. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, you were also involved in the parish itself, besides being involved in the school. Would you tell us about the work that you did in the parish? Sr. Devota: Well, before I went to Caritas community, I had been a Eucharistic minister already, had been through that training and so forth. So when I went to Saint Joseph's parish, this parish in which Caritas community is located, I was Eucharistic minister the whole time that I was there. And that was really a privilege. Then once a week on Monday nights a group of the women used to get together. In fact, they used to come over to the convent and we would have the 15 decades of the Rosary every Monday night. And a couple of the sisters and I always participated in that and that was rewarding. And, too, they had the annual carnival that we had in the fall of every year. And sometimes I would go out during the carnival and help sell chances or do something like that, just to try and make myself useful. Sr. Marie: If I remember correctly, you were involved, quite involved in the life of the parish in any activity they had. Sr. Devota: Well, I always liked it. I felt I liked to be part of the parish. But sometimes my other activities, for instance, the Human Services Advisory Council, we used to have meetings beside our evening meetings. We used to have meetings on Monday, it used to be mostly committee meetings on Monday afternoon. I had joined the senior citizens in the parish, but this interfered with some of the other meetings I had in the Human Services Advisory Council. So I really couldn't continue that for too long, although I went on some of the activities that they had. One thing that they had, and this was a parish activity. I just thought of it. The PATH [Port Authority Trans-Hudson transit system], the trains there that run at Journal Square Port Authority, they wanted to build something right there at the square in the PATH terminal, which ran into our parish. There were people living over there and the railroad, when the trains went right underneath. There was this area of the parish, it was called The Island. And whatever the Port Authority wanted to build, I don't really know exactly what it was, but I knew it was going to be very, very noisy. And people objected very much to it because they just felt that the noise involved, they weren't going to stay in the parish and they did not want to move. So they organized a trip to Trenton and asked for a group of us to go to Trenton to fight this. And, of course, I was one of the ones who went to Trenton. And as a result, the Port Authority gave up the idea of building whatever they wanted to build that was going to be so noisy and have such a negative influence on the people in the parish. I was glad of that. And I made some nice acquaintances the day we went there. Sr. Marie: �So, it sounds as if you not only were involved on councils and in the parish, you were involved in really helping to change the life of the whole community and of a lot of people in Hudson County. Sr. Devota: I don't know how much I changed their lives, but… Sr. Marie: Well… Sr. Devota: I was involved in some way in a few things. Sr. Marie: And it sounds as if you went out to the poor, as we do as Sisters of Charity. So, thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for your time. Sr. Devota: You're very welcome and… Sr. Marie: And for giving us the example. Sr. Devota: Very happy to be able to share it because I feel that these are privileges that the Lord gave me, that I didn't have to sit idle and just twiddle my thumbs after I had retired. Sr. Marie: After your retirement, right. Sr. Devota: But I'm very grateful for all I was able to do. And it didn't seem like a lot at the time, but now as I look back, I'm glad I was able to do what I did. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gately, Sister Marie Devota, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:22:29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Marie Devota Gately, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Caritas Community; Jersey City, NJ; St. Joseph Parish and School, Jersey City, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 28, 1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Marie Devota describes her varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 28, 1996 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f3b5feb194f2f78146fc374d5318cb8e.jpg c24f906c5358365988a04b8cfad59a07 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1c02a297cfb98d3431125075a9bdfff7.mp3 278b27ba24d9e9d11b5f575bd2b032a0 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/85eda9283204976c29e3a91d0a80b2f5.pdf 1b7234a25d10498afaf9791b0a6100f6 PDF Text Text 1 ORAL HISTORY OF SISTER NANETTE GENTILE, D.C. INTERVIEWED BY SISTER HELEN BREWER, D.C. RECORDED JULY 2019 I am Sister Nanette Gentile. I was born September 10, 1933 to Sarah and Peter Gentile. I am the oldest of three girls, Kathleen who is now Mrs. Ed Sheridan and Patricia who is now Mrs. David Hurst. A threeyear-old boy was born after me and he died of meningitis so that was a sad time in our family. So, tell us a little bit about your childhood. You have no living brothers; you grew up with sisters. I grew up in a very happy household. My mother and dad were always there for us as were my grandparents. We lived with my grandparents and we did things together and had fun together and I remember even taking a long trip to New York for the World’s Fair. I was in an organdy dress – that was not comfortable, but I remember it. [laughter] You remember the dress and then you ended up wearing the big hat! Do you have other childhood memories that you can think of? My mother had a very large family. She had three sisters and four brothers and I grew up with them. At every holiday we celebrated together. At Christmas time we played poker until the wee hours of the morning on New Year’s Eve. We danced together. I learned to dance at every Italian wedding there was. I felt like I had a very happy childhood, very grateful for it. Imagine the Italian weddings. Were there other Italian customs and things that you grew up with that were particularly important? Well, I remember at Christmas time, at the end of Advent – because we always fasted – we had certain rituals. Before midnight Mass, we would have little panini with little fishes in them, and then after Midnight Mass, we had meat in them. There was always something special that my grandmothers made. My grandniece got married a year ago and at her wedding, I said, “Where’s the pecans, the covered pecans that the Italians always had?” She didn’t have those. So we had all those little rituals. It was good. Some are being carried on in the next generation, some, not all. What about your vocation story? How did you meet the Daughters and were you young…?” Well, I went to a public school for my first six years of education. Then I transferred to St. Philip Neri School [in St. Louis] for seventh and eighth grades, and the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet taught at that school. I enjoyed school, and I enjoyed my family. We’d go to Mass at St. Philip Neri on Sunday, and the Daughters of Charity taught at a high school near us, Labouré High School. They would come to their second Mass at St. Philip Neri ,and I would see them in the cornette and say, “I would never be caught dead wearing that!” I went to Labouré High School, I joined the Legion of Mary, and I did my service projects going with the Sisters to visit the chronic hospital in St. Louis, and I learned that there were very poor people. So I wanted to give my life to helping people. I became a postulant in 1951 and I was at St. Philomena’s in St. Louis. In December – in those days we had a very short postulancy – I transferred and became a Seminary Sister at Marillac Provincial House. �2 Did you come to the Daughters right after high school? I came to the Daughters in August, right after high school. So you went to the Seminary… And spent a year as a novice. And then at the end of that, I was asked to study to prepare for getting a college degree. So they sent me to my very first mission, St. Patrick School in LaSalle, Illinois and I taught the fourth and fifth grade. And you didn’t receive your degree yet? You went right out to teach. Is that correct? Right. I was in the process of getting the degree but didn’t have it yet. And in fact, after two years they sent me to St. Vincent School in Perryville, Missouri, so I could ride on Saturdays to St. Louis so that I could take courses at Marillac College. Quite a few Sisters did that as well as well, I think, did they not? Yes, I always had company in the car. One of the older boys of the parish drove us every Saturday, very faithful to picking us up and bringing us home. In Perryville I taught fourth and fifth grade but also the eighth grade boys. The custom was in Lent on Fridays we would take the kids to the seminary church which was down the block and go to Stations [of the Cross]. Well, I began with maybe thirty boys and ended up with five, because they would all run away! [laughter] I loved my missions and I loved both places. Eventually I became a full-time student. They sent me to Montreal to study French and then I also studied Spanish at St. Louis University, and I taught at Marillac College for twelve years. Why did they ask you to go into languages? Because they needed a language teacher, and I happened to be good at it when I was taking my preparatory courses at Marillac College. At home I heard Italian. I didn’t have an academic knowledge of Italian, but I heard it, so I was comfortable. I had an ear for languages. I remember one funny event, it wasn’t so funny then, in Montreal. The people weren’t used to the Sisters. There were a lot of Sisters – it was a Catholic population – but they weren’t used to the cornette. I had to take four buses to get to the University of Montreal and they would call me Sputnik and Dumbo the Elephant. I remember that. I learned a lot because the Sisters only spoke French. I feel like I’m more fluent in French because I really had to navigate. I had to do it. After that, when I came back, I was still studying at the University and I was named to be the Seminary Directress. That means being in charge of our recruits, our novices. I did that for six years, and while I did it, I commuted to Perryville, Missouri where I taught languages to the Vincentian seminarians. That was a delightful experience because I was the first woman to accept that position. It was a groundbreaker. Yeah, and they tested me at first, trying to throw little paper airplanes until I told them, “OK, boys, this is the end.” [laughter] This is not fourth grade! �3 But it was fun. After Directress, I went to San Antonio, Texas where I worked in a Mexican-American parish as a DRE [Director of Religious Education]. I loved it there because the people were so intent on doing the right thing for their families. Unfortunately, I did not stay there long. I was named to be a Provincial Councillor and after that, I became the Visitatrix of the Province. Did you pick up more Spanish when you were in San Antonio? When I was in San Antonio, I used Spanish more. I finally got my degrees around 1972 and then later in 1974 when I got one in French and one in Spanish. But never in Italian? Never in Italian. But, I was Seminary Directress and also Provincial Councillor, they sent me to the varied congregational meetings that we had in Rome and also in Paris and in Toronto. I had to do Italian the first time because they didn’t have an Italian translator. So I did do it. A lot of times I listened to the French and then translated it into Italian. They only asked me to do that one time. Generally, I translated from French and Spanish into English. That was just a very meaningful experience in my life. And a lot of work, I bet. And a lot of work. Now when you were Councillor, those were the days when they were specialized. I recall health, education… I was Formation Councillor. I had been Seminary Directress, so I continued to work with the Sisters who were preparing for vows and also preparing programs for continuing formation for all of the Sisters. So I worked with teams, all kinds of committees, went to many intercongregational meetings in St. Louis and elsewhere to work with others in formation programs. Then you became the Vis. Then I became Visitatrix. How was that? How was that? I enjoyed going to all the missions and seeing what the Sisters were doing and how many services they were giving to the poor, no matter where they were or what they were doing. The Sisters always evinced a great passion for their service, and that kept them going and kept the province going. I felt like we were very healthy because the Sisters were responding to our newer call to be who we are. So that was a great gift. That was a great gift. I learned a lot from the Sisters. I remember with one of the Seminary Sisters, she very frankly told me that they were not fifth graders and so I was to talk to them like adults. [laughter] Good point! �4 I learned much from the people I lived with and also the ones I visited interactively. It was an awesome time as Visitatrix because it was a time when we were beginning to discern should we keep this large Provincial House that serves 200 people and we’re not getting that many recruits. Can we continue the upkeep and the expense? So we had to go into a two year discernment with the whole Province. Fortunately, the folks from UMSL, the University of Missouri in St. Louis, wanted to expand their campus, so they were really eager to buy the Provincial House. We were so fortunate. Very lucky. It’s a very healthy operation now – still education – and for the lower-income folks getting degrees. That was just such a great blessing, and I’m grateful for that. One more item while you were Visitatrix and you talked about your formation. One of the things that I remember is the LIM [Loyola Institute for Ministry] Program for the young Sisters. I think that was a big piece of what you installed as well. Do you want to talk about that? We worked with Loyola in New Orleans. They had a program where they taught trainers, and trainers worked with the attendees in the local areas. We had our young Sisters there but we also invited folks in who were more experienced to dialogue with them because it wasn’t just a head program, it was a heart and service program. It was an opportunity for them to hear the experiences of other people. And I think you were part of that [points to Sister Helen]. I was and that’s why I was in touch with it. But I think it was an excellent program because one of the things was many of the younger Sisters didn’t have a lot of theology in their training so it helped out. Yes, definitely. OK, so you weren’t Vis forever. What happened next? Then I went to the Seton Family of Hospitals in Austin, Texas. I worked in the Education Department for a long time. I learned how to do my-- I could fax things myself, I could copy things myself. I didn’t have a secretary, so I learned all these wonderful, practical skills. Then they put me as the Vice President for Mission Integration, and I worked in leadership formation, almost like a spiritual direction individually with the executive staff. Oh, the executives mostly. That was a good opportunity. Then I was asked to come to St. Louis and be Sister Servant of one of the groups here at the Sarah Community, the Assisted Living Groups. Well, that’s what I thought, and then they gave me all the groups! That was a trick! [laughter] I did it for four years, but just walking from one end of the building to another was enough of a challenge for me to say, “That’s really all I can do!” But I love the Sisters, and when I think back on my ministries – working with the children, they were spontaneous and fun. You never knew what they were going to do. Especially with eighth grade boys. �5 Yes. With the Mexican Americans, I always admired that they would do anything for their families. They worked very hard. In the health care, the executives wanted to be people of integrity because they wanted to serve the mission and the poor like the Daughters. They were very sincere about that. In the international level, there were so many diverse people who had all kinds of ideas and ways that we should be serving the poor, and I learned from them. I was always appreciative of all the people that I worked with. So, when I think back, I always said if I had stayed as a good Italian-American girl, I would have married and had ten kids, and that would have been OK. But I feel that in the community, I have been given much in the way of education, in the way of opportunity, in the way of grace. I’m a person right now, thank God, who is very grateful. So when people say, “How are you doing?” I say, “I can’t complain about anything.” That’s a great gift. I’m just going to say, I think you missed one thing; when you were in Austin, you also worked with the Ladies of Charity, one of the very special groups. Yes, one of the Mission Integration person at Providence in Waco asked me to work with the Ladies of Charity in Harper Heights. Oh my! What a diverse and loving group. I did that, and then I worked with other-- the Vincent de Paul Society in Austin and also another group of Ladies of Charity. I loved every minute of that, too. They were a great group. Yes. Is there anything else you want to add for history’s sake? Do you think you’ve covered it? I think I’ve covered it. I want to continue to learn from the people I live with. I think because I was in leadership for a long time, the tendency was working with people. But now I’m not in leadership so I want to be more with people and learn from them. I do that by praying to the Holy Spirit all the time. One of the things I think here is, now that you’re at Sarah, we’re at Sarah, and you mentioned diversity a number of times. The whole idea that we are here at the Sarah community, not just with Daughters, but with other communities, and lay people. Even men are here, so what is your response to that experience that we are having now? That’s a great gift. I think so, too. It’s a great gift. Again, I learned from the experiences of all the ninety-year-olds that are here, whether they are lay or religious and what they experienced, and how they lived, and what they lived through. And then our staff. It’s such a delight to be in the dining room in the evening and have our food served. But to be served by young people who are just beginning, and who, in a sense, look to us for support and we give it. I mean our ministry of prayer is so filled with opportunity that can’t begin to pin it down. Right. So, God is good. God is good. I agree. Thank you, Nanette. This was excellent, very inspiring as well to hear. Thank you. �6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Charity, Province of St. Louise Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Brewer, Sister Helen, D.C. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gentile, Sister Nanette, D.C. Location The location of the interview St. Louis, MO Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:19:18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gentile, Sr. Nanette, D.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Gentile, Sr. Nanette, D.C.,Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, Language and education--United States Description An account of the resource Sister Nanette Gentile discusses growing up in an Italian-American family in St. Louis, studying different languages, and her life as a Daughter of Charity. She served as Visitatrix from 1989 to 1998, closed the Marillac College campus, and became the first woman to teach at the Vincentian Seminary in Perryville, MO. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gentile, Sr. Nannette, D.C., Brewer, Sr. Helen, D.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Daughters of Charity Archives, Province of St. Louise, Emmitsburg, MD Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Scott (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for any type of publication of archival materials, including text, photographs, video, or audio must be secured from the Daughters of Charity Communications Director before publication. Contact archives staff for appropriate forms and contact information Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3, Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Gentile, Sister Nanette Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1933-2019 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul Education Sister Leaders https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a0d0abeb6c9e5dd1d5fef502a039fee0.jpg 4ae3c93555b388c642c0a893ec3ef959 https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/66bbf0b012b59a31d60fa10f9e1789c8.pdf da3a08de63e6ba354d41ed87c3e9f773 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Grace Henke, SC Monday, October 28, 2019, 3:23PM • 41:24 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is Monday, October 28, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Grace Henke. It is about 10:49am, and we are at the ALP (Assisted Living Program). Sr. Grace Henke 00:20 Right. Angelica Bullock 00:21 So Sr. Grace Henke, can you please state your full name? Sr. Grace Henke 00:25 Yes, it is Grace Cecilia Henke. Angelica Bullock 00:30 And what was or is your religious name? Sr. Grace Henke 00:34 My religious name was Sr. Mary Adrienne Henke. Angelica Bullock 00:46 And what is your current age? Sr. Grace Henke 00:49 My current age? Let's see, I was born in 1932. So what would that make me? I guess? So that would be 1932, would be 68, 78 and 9- 87. Did you get that? All right. (laughter) Angelica Bullock 01:14 Okay. And do you remember approximately what year you entered the congregation? Sr. Grace Henke 01:20 1951. Angelica Bullock 01:23 And you remember your age at the time? Sr. Grace Henke 01:26 I think I was probably, well, that's 1932 to 1951- do that on your calculator. (laughter) -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:37 19 Sr. Grace Henke 01:39 I was 19. I was surprised. Angelica Bullock 01:41 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 01:42 I worked for a year at the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, which was like the annex to the Sisters of Charity. Really, because we had to work for a year for a dowry, some kind of a dowry. So we save money. Angelica Bullock 01:58 You know, I think I did hear another Sister that I interviewed...She said that she worked there. 02:06 A lot of us work there. And when we left, they knew that we were there. You know, we were there for the year. And they gave us a party and gave us gifts. (laughter) Angelica Bullock 02:20 And you mentioned the dowry. Was there, like, was it expensive? Sr. Grace Henke 02:25 I don't remember. I don't remember, I think might have been a couple of hundred dollars, but I don't remember. Angelica Bullock 02:30 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 02:30 It was just that you were supposed to bring some kind of money with you. And of course, we had all graduated from high school. Angelica Bullock 02:37 Okay. And how many years have you been in the congregation? Sr. Grace Henke 02:43 Well, I guess that we have to do that again. 51 one today. I guess it's 67 or 68. It's a whole lifetime. Angelica Bullock 02:57 68 years. -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 02:58 Isn't that amazing? Angelica Bullock 03:00 68 years is a long time. Sr. Grace Henke 03:02 It's a long time. Do I look 87? Angelica Bullock 03:06 No. (Laughter) I never think sisters look their age though. And I always feel like sisters look younger than the general population. Do you think so? Sr. Grace Henke 03:18 I think so too. Angelica Bullock 03:19 Yeah. Okay, so going down the list. This leads us to general information, a little bit about where you from. So where were you born? Sr. Grace Henke 03:34 I was born in the Bronx. Angelica Bullock 03:37 And did you grow up in the Bronx? Sr. Grace Henke 03:38 I grew up in the Bronx. Angelica Bullock 03:40 And what about your parents? Where were they from? Sr. Grace Henke 03:43 My mother was from Washington DC. She was Adrienne Lemerle. And Adrian was spelt the way I spelled my name. It is very French and my father grew up in New York. And he was Eugene Raymond Henke. Can you imagine a Lemerle- Adrianne Lemerle, married Eugene Henke. But- they did, they had a good life together. He died when he was 35. Angelica Bullock 04:24 Wow. Sr. Grace Henke 04:24 So it was very hard on my mother. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 04:27 And how did you feel? I guess, losing your father so young. Sr. Grace Henke 04:33 Well, I probably- I was only 10 at the time. So, you know, I didn't I really didn't know. I remember it was a big thing, whether or not they were going to let me see my father and the funeral home. You know, like it must've been traumatic or not. And I can remember they did let me go in. And like I touched him, and I just said to myself, he's very cold. Like, because he was like, sleeping, you know? Angelica Bullock 05:05 And did you grow up in different areas of the Bronx or just one? Sr. Grace Henke 05:09 No, we grew up I well, Leland. Well, when I was young, we grew up in Hollywood Avenue, and went to St. Francis de Chantel. And then my father worked for Con Edison. So, we moved to Leland day Avenue, because he could get on the subway, the elevated subway- dance point, which is where he worked. So, we really grew up in the Bronx really. Went to let's see, St. Francis de Chantel. And then we moved to Blessed Sacrament. And that was very interesting because and St. Francis de Chantel, they put you in size places in school. So because I was big girl, I was in the back. I didn't know that I couldn't see. I couldn't get my classes- I couldn't do the homework. My father used to get very upset with me. When we moved to Leland Avenue, we went to Blessed Sacrament, the Sisters of Charity. And the first thing they did was give me a test for sight and told me I needed glasses. And I can still remember, to this day, walking out on the street at night. And it was, it was Parkchester, it was like a Fairyland, to see the lights to see everything so clear. Angelica Bullock 06:35 So that kind of leads to my next question. When did you first know the Sisters of Charity of New York? Sr. Grace Henke 06:43 Well, when I went to a Blessed Sacrament, that's when I met the Sisters of Charity. And I was very impressed with them. They were very kind. I don't know what the other sisters were, but these sisters were very kind- and I can remember going to visit them in the convent. Like I enjoyed being with them. And it wasn't until I went to Cathedral High School, we had the Sisters of Charity. I was in the annex for two years and had the Christian charities. And I was thinking of religious life then. The Christian charities really were a German order. And I said, Oh, I don't want a German order, because I wanted to stay where my mother was. So the last two years, you went to the main building, which was Cathedral High School, and you'll hear a lot of sisters went to Cathedral High School. And it was there- I was getting my coat and Sister Anna Mercedes came behind me. This is my senior year. And she said to me, “You have a vocation.” And I burst out crying because, I guess I hadn't thought about it at all. I really thought I was going to go to Hunter College and be in the science field. You know? So, after that, when I thought about that, that's when I spoke to Father, you know, Father Dunellen, and said, “How can I leave my mother alone?” -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 08:13 Did he give you any advice? Sr. Grace Henke 08:16 He said, “If you have that vocation, you, you should pay attention to it. And let me talk to your mother.” So he talked to my mother, and she accepted it, which was wonderful. I mean, wasn't it wonderful of her to accept that, because she lost my father and then she lost me. But, when I was at St. Vincent's, she used to come to visit me whenever we could at the Mount (Mount Saint Vincent), and then she would visit me at St. Vincent's Hospital. We had a visit every month, and she would come and visit. Angelica Bullock 08:53 And did you have any other members of your family that were in religious life at that time? Sr. Grace Henke 08:59 I'm the only one. Angelica Bullock 09:00 Wow. Sr. Grace Henke 09:01 I'm the only one. I'm praying now for (redacted). Who is about maybe a teenager now? Because he seemed to be tending toward religious life. So he doesn't know, but I'm praying every day he becomes a priest. You don't know what we're praying for you. Angelica Bullock 09:26 Yeah, that was that was a very big sacrifice of your mom. Sr. Grace Henke 09:31 It really was. Yeah. And that's why I thought the Sisters of Charity. I had thought about the Maryknolls but they go to foreign missions, and they take care of a lot of bugs. So I said to myself, if I go to stay, take a New York- New York convent. It won't be bad. I won't have a lot of bugs. And I'll be near my mother, which was one of the reasons why I chose this community. Angelica Bullock 10:04 And do remember anything about like when you first entered the community? Sr. Grace Henke 10:10 People kept telling us that we were going to scrub the floor with toothbrushes. I mean, this is the kind of thing they told you. "Oh when you join the convent." No, I remember, I must tell you it was like a few. The three years of religious life was like a mystery to me. I did everything I was supposed to do. Went every place I was supposed to go, but I don't remember a lot of it to be honest with you. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 10:44 And when you entered, where there a lot of girls from your high school, Cathedral, that entered the same time? Sr. Grace Henke 10:50 Yes, I would say- we were 41 that entered- I would say half of them are probably from Cathedral. Cathedral High School and St. Barnabas were the two major areas. The sisters, sisters taught there. And that's how you got to know them. Angelica Bullock 11:09 And do you think it was easier entering, knowing that you already knew people? Like you kind of knew some people in the community? Sr. Grace Henke 11:19 No, I wasn't, it didn't, nothing affected me that way- it was just myself and my vocation with God, I think is what drew me and whoever was with me, that was accepted. Angelica Bullock 11:34 I see. So it is more your personal relationship with God. Sr. Grace Henke 11:38 Yes. Yes, I would think so. Angelica Bullock 11:43 And when you entered, did you feel like you're fulfilling that desire, I guess, to get closer to God? Sr. Grace Henke 11:52 I feel that that's true. That it was our-my mission, to serve the Lord and His people. To take care of the poor. Angelica Bullock 12:02 I guess now we can skip to ministries... Sr. Grace Henke 12:06 Okeydoke. Angelica Bullock 12:07 So, I'm gonna let you take charge, and tell me about your ministry. -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 12:13 So, when I entered it, we took the CUDA preference test. And when we were seniors, and we went into the School of Nursing. When we first went in to, to the school, there was no place for us. There were no-It was I think there were over 60 sisters working at St Vincent's Hospital, and there was no room for us in the residence. So, we lived at Immaculate Conception in the Bronx, which was a school on 14th Street. And we lived there, and every morning we would get on. If it was a nice day we'd walk over to St. Vincent's, which was on 12 Street. Angelica Bullock 12:50 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 12:51 It was about maybe four, four or five blocks away. But on days that the weather wasn't good, we'd take the bus. So that was interesting. When we went there we were in our black habits, and they gave us a course, a crash course- taught us to be nurses’ aides. So, one of the sisters would give us- Sister Patrice gave me hers-would give us an apron, that white apron that we'd put it on and we'd go to- we went over in March, and we didn't start school till September. So, for those few months, we were living at Immaculate conception and then going back and forth and working as nurses, aides. Angelica Bullock 13:33 Okay. And did you always have some kind of desire to be a nurse? Sr. Grace Henke 13:40 Yes. When I was a Senior I went to I went to St. Vincent's open house, and I know now it was a really a brandy, one of the teachers and she was very quick and she really didn't want to do this open up. So she took us in one door showed us showed us this classroom where they taught, you know, blood pressure and goal and took us out the door. Then I went to I went to Columbia Presbyterian. Each person that went, had a student nurse assigned to them. We had high tea. And then they took us around the hospital. And they took us into the operating room. You know, when you look at the movies, and you have that balcony, and we were so astonished, then they took us to their residence. Each student nurse had her own room, and I said to myself, wow, I'm gonna go here. Of course, I entered the lead at St Vincent's Hospital. But that was fun. So, I really was interested in nursing before. So it was, it was wonderful. I was able to do that. Angelica Bullock 14:53 And how many years were you a nurse for about? Sr. Grace Henke 14:57 Well, I am a nurse. How many years have how many years have I been practicing nursing? I practice nursing till about 2003 so if we started and in 1954 we can do that on computer, before 2003. That was a lot of news. Yes, Angelica Bullock 15:25 Yeah. Forty-nine years. -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 15:27 That's a lot of years. So, from here, I don't know if you want all this, I was a student nurse and a graduate and an assistant head nurse, and then an evening supervisor. And then I was an instructor in the School of Nursing. I taught anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, and I wrote a book called 'Med Math.' You know, I was teaching pharmacology and this the salesman always come every and a salesman from Lippincott came in, he said, just you're not buying a book. I said, I don't like your book. I'm doing my own. I'm doing my own worksheets. So he said, Could you give me some? So I said, Yes, sure. So he came back a couple of weeks later and he said, We'd like to publish your, you know, your sheets as a workbook. So I spoke to Sister Mary Robin, who is the directed and she said, Why don't you go ahead and do it? It's a big job to do a book. So I did 'Med Math' which was dosage calculation and administration. And that went into five additions. In fact, it's still I think, somebody told me they saw it at one of the, what is it place that sells textbooks? Barnes and Noble. I saw it at Barnes and Noble. So, I did five additions and then after that, they wanted to go into a digital one with a computer. And I said, I really wasn't qualified to do that. So, somebody has a name on, it's 'Henke's Med Math', but somebody suing somebody from the University of Georgia is doing the computer one. So, we were lucky. We got royalties for five years. On that I sent them to the community. What am I gonna do with royalties? Angelica Bullock 17:26 But how does that feel to know that you have like your own textbook and students are …? Sr. Grace Henke 17:31 Well, I wanted, you know, I'm terrible at math. So, I when I did a textbook, I did the textbook for people who were terrible in math, so I always felt very good. In fact, I have something here. Let's see. When I had my 50th anniversary, let me see if I can find this. Elena [Director of Communications] put it on, this was… that's the book. Angelica Bullock 18:02 There's a lot of chapters, thirteen chapters. Sr. Grace Henke 18:05 Well, it was a lot to teach. Oh, here it is. So, these are some of the comments from people. Angelica Bullock 18:15 Oh, this is nice. See? Sr. Grace Henke 18:19 That makes that made me feel so good. And one of them way down at the end said, “I was terrible in math, and she helped me.” I mean, just that one person. I said, “Oh, wow.” Angelica Bullock 18:32 So, I'm reading aloud one of these comments and they're saying that you're one of the best teachers that they ever had. A lot of people are saying that, are saying thank you to you. How does that feel? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 18:47 Feels very good. Now, let me tell you what happened. While I was teaching there, they started a nursing course at [College of] Mount Saint Vincent and they made their students take a nursing drug test dosage test. And if they didn't get one hundred, they wouldn't keep them. So, they were having a problem because they couldn't fire or discharge these students. So, they called me and they said, “Would you come?” I said to myself, these are very bright women. They just don't understand what it is. So, I took a whole bunch of medicines, and a whole bunch of medicine tickets. And I said to them, “Here is the order that the doctor ordered and this is the way the drug comes.” And they said, “Oh, so then it was easy to figure it out.” Once you understood. The problem was they weren't doing practical work with them. So, then they all passed. They were right, you know? Angelica Bullock 19:49 But I mean, how does it - I'm not in the sciences at all. But I guess medicine seems like a very like lifeor-death situation, right? You can't mess up dosages right? Sr. Grace Henke 20:05 So, that's right. I would make my students get 100%. But if they didn't get 100%, because I said to them,”If you got 98% in this test, and the 2%, that you didn't know, was the 2% drug that you were giving me,” I said, “Something terrible could happen to me.” So, I want you in the beginning to get 100% to prove that you could do it and not make an error. We did a lot of work on read the label three times, read the medicine three times, check what you're doing. So, I always felt very good about doing that, that I was able to help people help patients by helping the students, was wonderful. It's a wonderful gift. Really. Angelica Bullock 20:54 Do you remember your early days of nursing? Sr. Grace Henke 20:59 Yes. That was in the Ward building, it was called the Seton Building and I worked on the female floor. And these were little old ladies in a room, there were 10 of them in the room, and they were all fractured hips. And in those days when a little old lady got a fractured hip, they put her in traction. So, she was in traction for several weeks at a time until it healed and on her back all the time. So, the nursing care was very, very serious, because you didn't want them to get bed sores. And I was the assistant head nurse. I put two aides on in the evening instead of one aide and two nurses. I put two nurses so that that room would get good care. And every morning I'd come in and they pull that nurse aid to someplace else. I would run down to nursing administration and say, “I put two aides on and you took one, you have to think of the whole hospital,” used to drive me crazy. But anyway, that was wonderful nursing care. And then I was moved to St. Joseph's, which was a men's room. And a lot of them were diabetics. They were homeless men from the street. So, lots of times at St. Vincent's, this was before insurance, we would keep them all winter. And in the springtime, we’d get them clothes and shoes, and get social service to help them find a place to live. And then let them go out. Was a whole different way of giving nursing then. Now, the first thing they want to see is are you covered. What's your insurance, right? Yeah. And I think St. Vincent, I think we lost, because we would take anybody, I mean anybody in the emergency room, regardless of their ability to pay, that was a wonderful gift that -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �we gave to people, you know, the Lord enabled us to do that. Of course, that's probably one of the reasons why we had to close because we ran out of money. Angelica Bullock 23:22 What do you think that's the conversation now? And universal health care and caring for those who don't have insurance? Because when you're at St. Vincent's, that was kind of like the pioneer for all the stuff that's being talked about. Sr. Grace Henke 23:40 So now, we do have these sponsored works that we do, we still have St. Joseph's Hospital [Yonkers, NY]. We have St. Vincent's Harrison [Westchester, NY], which is a mental health pavilion, and we do a lot of work, helping people get insurance. That's part of our work now. You know, with the different sponsored works that we have. And people who come in like Casa Esperanza [Multiservice Center, Yonkers, NY], you know, helping people to learn English and giving them all kinds of supportive services, POTS (Part of the Solution) is another one. We're not in the hospitals now. I think that we were trying to figure out when we went to the last wake, how many nurses were left? I think there may be five of us, five of us in the whole, we were never a large group, you know, in the Community. But if you look at us now, we're all in ArchCare. So that's using the Archdiocesan work. So, we're benefiting from our own help. You know, I can remember when we had an Assembly and the question was would we go into social security? And there was a big to do about that. There are a lot of sisters who said, we shouldn't be going into Social Security, because that's for the poor, and we should be able to take care of ourselves. And I think some sisters left the Community on the head of that. But thank God it was Sr. Margaret Dowling [President, 1971-1979] I think, who brought us into that. And at St. Vincent's, we were working, but we were like, when I was teaching, we were getting a good salary, but we never saw it, it went into the Community. So, in fact, we weren't getting it, I think we were getting a stipend, and W. R. Grace was the chair of the Board of Trustees. And he said to Sr. Loretta Bernard [Mother Loretta Bernard Beagan, 1960-1966; Administrator, St. Vincent’s Hospital], 'Your sisters should get the money from the work that they're doing because they are doing professional work, and that money was what enabled us to pay back all the the Social Security for all the sisters who had taught. So that's how we get the minimum social security. But can you imagine what a great gift that was? Angelica Bullock 26:15 I want to know why you mentioned that some sisters didn't want you to have those benefits? Sr. Grace Henke 26:22 They felt that it belonged to the poor. And we shouldn't be using the money of the poor. That's what they felt. They were very strong. I think some sisters really left the Community. You can ask other people what they thought about that. But where would we go? If we didn't have Social Security now. We were living with Social Security and Medicare, Medicaid, we're on supplemental insurance. We even get something here we get a card from CVS [drug store], which is $50 a month. And there are certain things that you can buy with that like toothpaste and stuff like that. If you don't use that $50 a month, you lose it. And then you get $50 for the next month. Can you imagine? We'd be with getting that with your taxes. Thank you. Thank you. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 27:28 But I think that's good, right. I mean, you spent all of your life but still, helping other people. Sr. Grace Henke 27:35 Well, like when Obama wanted insurance for all, it should be insurance for all people shouldn't have to not have insurance, they should be able to go. Okay, we're one of the worst countries in the world for health care. Angelica Bullock 27:53 Okay, I'm going to switch now to the paper I see in front of me about the St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Award. Do you want to talk a little bit about receiving that award? Sr. Grace Henke 28:06 Well, as I said to you, at St. Vincent's Hospital, when we had them, it was really a fundraising thing. It was, I think it was the Alfred E. Smith [Memorial Foundation] fundraising and there had to be a Sister every year. So I think after a few years, we were running out of sisters at the Hospital. So I don't take any I don't take any big, I don't feel excited about it. I just say, 'It was my turn.' You can read this award. But this is what this is what I said. One of the things that I did in the School of Nursing, which was wonderful, we weren't accepting people who didn't meet our admission requirements. And I said to Sister Robert [Sr. Mary Robert Nagle], we really should do something about that. So, I got money from the Gilroy Foundation, and from where else? The United Hospital Fund. And I started what's called, we called it a TAP program, and that meant Tutorial Assistance Program. So, we would take women who didn't meet our admission requirements, we'd bring them in, in the summertime, and tutor them. Get them into the idea of studying and help them. Some of them didn't even know that Manhattan was an island. You know, like, if your family loved you, they kept you home. You went to school, and then you stayed home. So, they didn't have a lot of experience. So, we gave them some experiences of being, you know, around the city. And then we tutored them in the School of Nursing and over 10 years period, is I wrote that down over 10 years period, we had 70 women who graduated and received their R.N.'s (Registered Nurse). Isn't that wonderful? And then I started a bioethics course, because we really needed ethics and nursing. So they asked me from the college, we didn't call it pharmacology, we called it pharmaco-physiology. And I did that for several views. That was very interesting; it was fun. And then one of the sisters asked me, Sister Marion Hunt, no it wasn't Marion Hunt, it was Kathleen Hunt, asked me if I would teach with her in philosophy. They wanted to two instructors in each course. so that they could make the course more, what's the word I want? Not more interesting, more valuable, more tuned. So, she would teach philosophy and I would do bioethics. So, I did that for three years with her. Angelica Bullock 31:21 What exactly is bioethics? - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 31:23 Bioethics says, when you're researching a situation, this person is in coma, should we turn off the life support or not? Should we do this? Should we do this surgery or not? So bioethics is, right decisionmaking. in this situation. What's the best thing that I can do, what's the best outcome that I can ask for in this situation? So it helps you sometimes, especially when we did it, we had a bioethics program in St Vincent's Hospital. And we would go around, anybody could ask us, a nurse could ask us to please come, or a doctor could ask us to please come, or a visitor or anybody could come. And there was a group of us and we would apply these principles of bioethics. Angelica Bullock 32:22 I never thought about that before, but I guess that seems very important. It's not only like the medical attention. Sr. Grace Henke 32:35 You're doing it all the time. We're doing it all the time, right? It's not only medical, it's everything. Angelica Bullock 32:46 You think that learning bioethics as a nurse, or your students, makes you more compassionate or more ethical? Sr. Grace Henke 33:00 It makes you more ethical, it makes you more logical in terms of decision-making, because sometimes you're not sure. Should I do this or should I do that? What should I do? So as a professional, it was important for them to be exposed to that. Angelica Bullock 33:23 What else would you like to talk about, Sister Grace? Sr. Grace Henke 33:27 I'm looking to see. Okay. I just wanted to say this. When, when I was at St. Vincent's, it was a community hospital. It was very small and charity was very strong. I told you we served anybody who came in whether they were poor or able to pay. And St. Vincent's, the other thing that we did was, AIDS became rampant when we were at St. Vincent's. And we were the hospital that was known as the AIDS hospital. The doctors and nurses we all got together, and different groups and we said,” AIDS is not a social disease. It's a disease, and it should be treated as such.” So we would have whole floors of AIDS patients that we took care of. And the Village [Greenwich Village] always appreciated us with a Catholic hospital. So when they didn't need us, they didn't come. But for AIDS, they came. And we were proud of that, that we were known as an AIDS hospital. And now it's wonderful because the medicines that they have now are really good. In the beginning, they had no medicines that worked well. Angelica Bullock 34:48 I guess, how did it feel working there at that time when HIV AIDS was so rampant, and people didn't know a lot about what it was? I think in my time, it seems like you can have HIV and it's kind of manageable. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 35:10 It's manageable. See, in those days, if you got AIDS you we're going to die. It was just no two ways about it. But we were able to take care of them. You're right. Now STD (Sexually Transmitted Diseases), know all those things. Now they just know that they're there because they know there are drugs that work. It's a whole different attitude. And in those days AIDS patients were frowned upon. I mean, people looked at them and said, “Oh, you know, what are they doing to themselves? What have they done?” But we didn't; we never turned them away. We took care of them. It was wonderful. Angelica Bullock 35:53 And did the patients ever express their gratitude towards you or the families? Did they have families? Sr. Grace Henke 36:02 Oh, yeah. Well, because they had significant others. And they were allowed into the hospital they were allowed to take care of them. Yes. You know, people even today, you know, so many years later, people will say to you, well, you were the AIDS hospital. You know, it was wonderful. I wrote down here in the late 60s, remember, how still at St. Vincent's the world changed, and the Congregation changed with it. The Sisters were leaving schools to begin other works. And the Congregation began to change. So that's really true. Angelica Bullock 36:40 How does it feel then when the Congregation started changing? Sr. Grace Henke 36:46 Well, let me think about that because, that's true. People were leaving the works that they were in. Sisters were leaving the works that they were in to do other works like social work. Like the things that we're talking about, you know, the sponsored works into housing and into caring for refugees and people who needed different kinds of activity and leaving hospitals and leaving schools. And the problem with leaving schools was to my mind, the idea of a Catholic school is very important to teach religion so that people grow up knowing some kind of background in religion. And now we don't have that. There aren't Sisters in schools anymore. There are different kinds of work. So that was a big problem. Because the question was, were you going to leave nursing? You know, to do something else. And I said to myself, well, this is my vocation. So, I felt very strong in my vocation, and I stayed with it until I retired actually. Either nursing itself or toward the end of my career, teaching, you know, teaching and writing. Angelica Bullock 38:16 Did most Sisters who were nurses stay nurses or do they go and do other things? Sr. Grace Henke 38:22 Most of the people who were nurses did nurse, and what happened was some of the Sisters who had been teaching who really wanted to nurse asked, and all the different things that came was poverty, chastity and obedience; were the three vows that you took. And after Vatican II, it became poverty, chastity and discernment. So, discernment meant you pray to God, you talk to other people, and you decided really what would be the best thing for you, a whole different ballgame. So, I am a - 13 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Heinegeplatz German (obedient) German. So poverty, chastity, obedience meant a lot to me. So, when people were discerning, I was getting distressed because they were leaving schools and see what I'm saying. But I stayed with nursing. But they were very happy. And God was calling them to that. So now I look, when I look at the changes, I don't know did you attend the last Assembly? I don't know, if you ever get a chance to go. What's happening now is they're wonderful. I must read something that I wrote here. We have begun to change and it is exciting. Sisters are energetic and focused on continuing the mission. And I love how the assembly is evolving and the Leadership is developing. Angelica Bullock 40:02 It sounds very positive and inspirational. Sr. Grace Henke 40:05 It's wonderful. It's, so I'm saying now, and the fact that we're here, like I said to Sr. Margaret O'Brien [Treasurer and Councilor, Congregation Leadership], “Is this helpful that we're here? Because we could be any place, you know.” But when she said, “Yes, it's helpful,” so that's my mission now; is to be here. Prayer is my mission in this place, and to be present to the people who live here and work here. Just being here as a Aister is good. We get a list from the Development Office every month for people who are asking for our prayers, and we are very grateful when they write and say something positive happened. Most of the time we don't know. But we keep praying. That's our thing. Angelica Bullock 40:54 That's very nice, because I think a lot of people do want people to pray for them. Sr. Grace Henke 40:59 Yes. Yes. And if you ask me to pray for you, I ask you with, what the first name of the person is, and I put that in my prayer envelope. I say, 'Lord, I may forget, but you remember.' So, we say the rosary every day for all those people who have asked for our prayers, and we mention if we need other intentions, we mention them too. - 14 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � https://www.scfederationarchives.org/files/original/294797d171691ffa455328ffcf94165f.mp3 feb84f6ef38fe7300bc6952c1223d930 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henke, Grace, SC Location The location of the interview The New Jewish Home, Kittay Senior Apartments, Bronx, New York Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:24:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Henke, Sister Grace, SC., Interview Subject The topic of the resource Henke, Sister Grace Description An account of the resource Sr. Grace Henke, SC, details her formative years as a novice and extensive career as a nurse and instructor at St. Vincent's Hospital School of Nursing. Sr. Grace authored 'Med-Math: Dosage Calculation Preparation and Administration' to simplify measurement of medications needed for patients. Sr. Grace developed a program to tutor underprivileged students to become nurses. She was part of the team that treated AIDS patients in the Greenwich Village hospital during the early years of the crisis. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Henke, Grace, SC Bullock, Angelica Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-10-28 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber, Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henke, Sister Grace, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City AIDS Healthcare Sisters of Charity of New York